Sauer Action

[Deleted member 53080]

Does anyone know if Sauer actions are push feed or controlled? I looked around a little and couldn’t find anything. May have overlooked it. Thanks

 

[Major Khan]

I do believe that they are push feed actions .... based on the variants which I have personally seen .

 

[Opposite Pole]

202 and 404 are push feed actions.

 

[Deleted member 53080]

Thank you sirs. I thought they were but I wasn’t quite sure

 

[Major Khan]

202 and 404 are push feed actions.

Opposite Pole ... you have made me curious . What about the model 101 ?

 

[mark-hunter]

Lower end bolt actions: Sauer 100, and Sauer 101 push feed models
Higher end rifles, also push feed: Sauer 202 (phased out) and 404.
Sauer 303 is beautiful semi auto, now offered in variety of stock configurations. The price, roughly, double to comparable browning BAR or Benneli Argo (or R1)

 

[Major Khan]

Lower end bolt actions: Sauer 100, and Sauer 101 push feed models
Higher end rifles, also push feed: Sauer 202 (phased out) and 404.
Sauer 303 is beautiful semi auto, now offered in variety of stock configurations. The price, roughly, double to comparable browning BAR or Benneli Argo (or R1)

The rise of the push feeds , Mark ! They are every where !

 

[Adrian]

Definitely all push feeds. Two shooting friends have the 404 model and they are definitely push feed. The lower end models also.
Never been a fan of the Sauer. They look good for sure but the stocks feel too skinny, not enough in the pistol grip area and the forend is way too skinny for my liking.

 

[Opposite Pole]

It's the same with various new Mausers as well. M03, M12, M18 - all push feed, same as Blaser R8. In fact there are very few modern production rifles with CRF action. I think with CZ550 being discontinued
there is not much apart from Win M70 in "everyday" CRF rifle category. It's mostly exotic and custom M98 clones like Heym Express, Prechtl, Reimer Johannsen and off course the British guns.

 

[Deleted member 53080]

Thanks for the information. I wonder why everyone is making the move? I guess it’s easier and therefore cheaper to produce a push feed action?

 

[mark-hunter]

That is correct, more economic production of push feed rifle.

The choice now for CRF is:
- 2nd hand market, for old models.
- or readily accessable brand new winchester m70, zastava m70, ruger 77 which are all still in production.
- or - New Original mauser 98, on highest end market of factory rifles.
- or small workshop handmade rifles around, less known - like Ferlach rifles
- or bespoke English bolt rifles, out of reach for most of us.

Note, Sako 85, is in fact advertised as CRF, but some will argue this - so sako 85, is a special case of CRF - without long extractor claw, non-mauser type - arguably CRF, let say.

 

[Opposite Pole]

When I look at pictures of Sako 85 bolt it looks like it would pick the round up straight from the mag and control it. It's a different design to Mauser's but it does not automatically mean it's not a CRF. There is more than one way to skin a cat. Mind you, I've never handled Sako 85 so take my argument for what it is - theoretical discussion. I’ve heard an opinion that Sako action is not a true control feed because it does not fully grab the case head until the round is roughly half way out of the magazine, but this is also the case with Win M70.

I didn’t know Ruger 77 was a CRF, thanks for the info.

 

[mark-hunter]

@Opposite Pole
I hunt with Sako 85.
In order to extract cartridges from push feed actions you need to unlock bolt, open the bolt (extract in process), close the bolt, lock the bolt. repeat. 4 movements
For CRF you only need to close the bolt bolt, open the bolt, repeat. no locking or unlocking is required to continue extraction of cartridges. 2 movements. (of course, to fire, bolt must be locked)

So sako 85 fits this description of CRF.
but it doesnt have long extractor, if somebody will define CRF with that feature.
Not all is black, in such discussions, and usual omitted fact is that m98 will have 90 degrees rotation, and sako 85, will have 60 degree bolt rotation.
So, there are always pros and cons.

Regardless of being CRF or PRF, Sako is good, reliable, accurate rifle, with some nice details.

It just may as well be be that old division between CRF and PRF is just becoming obsolete with some modern designs.

 

[One Day...]

You are correct mark-hunter.

CRF means "Controlled Round Feed." Nowhere in the acronym is the extractor mentioned

Any bolt with any extractor design, either internal (e.g. Sako) or external (e.g. Mauser) that captures the cartridge as it comes out of the magazine and carries/controls it to the chamber is a genuine CRF action. Examples of non-Mauser-claw-extractor CRF designs indeed include the Sako 85, but there are others too. For example the Steyr Mannlicher Luxus action circa 1970's or the little known Winchester PCRF design attempting to mitigate the commercial failure of their push feed post-64 model 70, before re-introducing CRF in 1992.

The big advantage of the CRF - very often misunderstood - it that it is about impossible to push a cartridge inadvertently into the chamber of leave it there when the bolt is moved back without being closed, in fact resulting in a loaded rifle that looks unloaded. Deadly accidents have resulted from this with folks closing the bolts on what they thought were empty rifles.

This has nothing to do with the big advantage of the Mauser claw extractor (in its non-beveled original form) that is to make it about impossible for a failure to extract, save for extremely rare complete cartridge head separation.

But since the Mauser 98 introduced simultaneously CRF and claw extractor, most people are hopelessly confused between the two features after reading repeatedly, although erroneously, for 100 years that an external claw extractor is what defines CRF

True controlled round feed (CRF) on a Steyr Mannlicher Luxus bolt circa 1970's.

Unique Steyr Mannlicher Luxus (circa 1970's) semi-internal / semi-external CRF extractor. A beautiful and extremely reliable CRF design.

My only experience with Sauer is the Sauer 90. It is a beautiful and unique design with rear lugs expanding out from the bolt body when the action is closed, but it does NOT provide CRF function.

 

[mark-hunter]

To members, interested in factory CRF m98 action, I completely forgot one more manufacturer to make m98.

Available only up to 9.3x62 - 64 mm caliber. (no 375... )

So Voere, 2155, 2165, based on m98 action, for hunters in countries where it is imported.

http://www.voere.com/en/rifle-technology/hunting-rifles.html

 

[Deleted member 53080]

Just looked on Voere’s website. They look like nice rifles and decently priced. I wonder if anyone imports them into the US? Kinda hard to navigate their online shop when I don’t speak German

 

[mark-hunter]

They have English button, I was reading it in English. or just press right button -> translate to english.
In the meantime I researched on the web, it seams they also have 375 hh caliber, but not advertised on the web site.

Long range rifles are more expensive, modular, very nice.

 

[Fastrig]

Does anyone know if Sauer actions are push feed or controlled? I looked around a little and couldn’t find anything. May have overlooked it. Thanks

The Sauer 404 is a damn nice rifle, regardless of feed type. If you like a trim rifle profile/stock you will probably love the S404. If you like a little beefier profile/stock you will prefer Sauer 404’s cousin, the Blaser R8. I’d take either in a heartbeat, though my dream rifle is the R8 Individual Success, grade 7, with a semi-weight fluted 375 H&H barrel with their HIVIS sights....magnificent rifle.

 

[Red Leg]

Thanks for the information. I wonder why everyone is making the move? I guess it’s easier and therefore cheaper to produce a push feed action?

They also work. With great dependability.

 

[Deleted member 53080]

Thanks. I just wondered. I don’t have enough experience to say yay or nay. Zero DG experience (push feed or crf), which from what I can tell is the main concern for most people, whether founded or not. I’m waiting on an M12 at the moment anyways