Ramshot hunter in 470 NE

[Backyardsniper]

I know that IMR 4831 is one of the go to powders in the 470. H4831 as well, both of these have been hard to find, but the Ramshot line of powders has been a little more available. Ramshot Hunter is one position slower on the burn rate chart than IMR 4831. I was curious id anyone had tried this in the 470?

 

[Luvthunt]

Not apples tp apples but have found that Ramshot Tac work well in the 458 Lott.
Ramshot folks were helpful.

 

[rookhawk]

I know that IMR 4831 is one of the go to powders in the 470. H4831 as well, both of these have been hard to find, but the Ramshot line of powders has been a little more available. Ramshot Hunter is one position slower on the burn rate chart than IMR 4831. I was curious id anyone had tried this in the 470?

I have not. IMR4831 is typically the last powder one reluctantly tries in 470NE in an attempt to get regulation, not the first. Ramshot is not on the list at all.

In order:

IMR3031
Reloader 15
IMR4350
IMR4831

Those are in order based on general accuracy, most frequent powder to obtain regulation, and recoil from best to worst.

 

[Backyardsniper]

I have not. IMR4831 is typically the last powder one reluctantly tries in 470NE in an attempt to get regulation, not the first. Ramshot is not on the list at all.

In order:

IMR3031
Reloader 15
IMR4350
IMR4831

Those are in order based on general accuracy, most frequent powder to obtain regulation, and recoil from best to worst.

If you have any load data for the 3031 shoot me a PM. It is available right now at powder valley but I haven't seen any load data on it. I have had good luck with RL 22 ans I just bought some H4831. I'm curious if reloader 16 will work well in it. It is almost identical burn rate as H4350 but it is a much fluffier powder and would fill the case well.

 

[rookhawk]

If you have any load data for the 3031 shoot me a PM. It is available right now at powder valley but I haven't seen any load data on it. I have had good luck with RL 22 ans I just bought some H4831. I'm curious if reloader 16 will work well in it. It is almost identical burn rate as H4350 but it is a much fluffier powder and would fill the case well.

You always use dacron stuffing or kynoch wads or rod backer with these cases. The go-to load that replicates the original ICI / Kynoch load is approximately:


77gr of 3031
2gr of Dacron to hold powder back
Crimped bullet
Woodleigh SP 500gr
Federal 215M primer
2050-2075FPS from a 24" barrel

This is not my load data, only what my gun uses. It was provided to me by a double rifle barrel mechanic of known expertise and I believe the data originated from Ross Seyfried but I'm not possible.

The recoil is about 1/3rd less than IMR4831 to achieve equal velocity.

 

[Backyardsniper]

I will give it a try. I have a large supply of backer rod and about 350 new federal pull downs with the 216 in them. I will be running it with CEB bullets and probably swift A Frames.

 

[sestoppelman]

'The recoil is about 1/3rd less than IMR4831 to achieve equal velocity.'

I would question this, unless you are talking about the amount of recoil derived from the weight of the powder charge.
IMR 4831 will require about a third more powder to reach the same velocity, but that would not necessarily equate to actual measured recoil reduction of the smaller charge of faster powder, but just that which the weight of the charge is responsible for. Or perhaps you mean felt/perceived recoil.

Am I wrong?

 

[rookhawk]

'The recoil is about 1/3rd less than IMR4831 to achieve equal velocity.'

I would question this, unless you are talking about the amount of recoil derived from the weight of the powder charge.
IMR 4831 will require about a third more powder to reach the same velocity, but that would not necessarily equate to actual measured recoil reduction of the smaller charge of faster powder, but just that which the weight of the charge is responsible for. Or perhaps you mean felt/perceived recoil.

Am I wrong?

You can run the math in a recoil calculator.

On my rifle, I get regulation with 77gr of 3031 or at 107gr of 4831. Does it regulate at a higher velocity with 4831? I do not know. But definitely, the recoil difference is SIGNIFICANT even if we assume the same 2075fps muzzle velocity purely by the powder charge difference.

58lbs of recoil with 3031
71.3lbs of recoil with 4831 *If at same velocity, if its actually 2150fps for the latter it would be 75lbs or more

But in actuality, the perceived recoil of 3031 is always less because its so fast burning the recoil is over before the gun starts moving. With 4831 that is longer burning, the additional momentum/duration gives a perception of more intense (sustained) recoil.

 

[sestoppelman]

You can run the math in a recoil calculator.

On my rifle, I get regulation with 77gr of 3031 or at 107gr of 4831. Does it regulate at a higher velocity with 4831? I do not know. But definitely, the recoil difference is SIGNIFICANT even if we assume the same 2075fps muzzle velocity purely by the powder charge difference.

58lbs of recoil with 3031
71.3lbs of recoil with 4831 *If at same velocity, if its actually 2150fps for the latter it would be 75lbs or more

But in actuality, the perceived recoil of 3031 is always less because its so fast burning the recoil is over before the gun starts moving. With 4831 that is longer burning, the additional momentum/duration gives a perception of more intense (sustained) recoil.

I dont have a recoil calc and accept your explanation. But it just seems odd, to me at least, given the same app velocity that the recoil difference would be so different just based on the use of a third more powder charge.
I would expect some since the charge is part of the ejecta and part of the recoil, but a third more seems high to me.

 

[rookhawk]

I dont have a recoil calc and accept your explanation. But it just seems odd, to me at least, given the same app velocity that the recoil difference would be so different just based on the use of a third more powder charge.
I would expect some since the charge is part of the ejecta and part of the recoil, but a third more seems high to me.

Indeed. There's the truth as far as a mathematical model is concerned, and then there is the perceived recoil as well.

I had a friendly argument trying to understand this concept with a world expert on double rifle regulation. I had assumed a really slow burning powder would be wonderful because I always thought "Better to have a push than a brisk shove". This was based on shooting weatherby cartridges a few times where the recoil was quite sharp, regardless of how big a cartridge it was whether 257 or 460.

The expert convinced me my thinking was very wrong. A fast burning powder in a double rifle gets the recoil event over with before the gun really starts coming towards your shoulder, whereas a slow powder just keeps pushing and pushing.

Real world, I tried this in my 470NE. I bought some of the Norma loaded Nosler solids and I could not figure out why it hurt so bad. Super painful. A PH in Africa remarked he never saw anything like my recoil response where the muzzles didn't rise at all, I just took all this horrific recoil to my shoulder. 4-5 rounds and I was flinching and my shoulder was badly bruised. I'm not a little man, I'm a gigantic human, and I was afraid of my 470NE.

So I sent it to Ken Owen and he did an autopsy on the factory ammo. He thought he recognized the powder as a Reloader or Vihta Vuori type and he did the math on that load with the solids. He figures I was shooting 95+ pounds of felt recoil with that factory load. He thought it was insane judgment by the factory and of course the loads wouldn't hit the broadside of the barn because they were going about 200fps faster than they ought to as well.

So I then tried Ken's advice of 3031 and the regulation was very good and the recoil was completely subdued. RL15 would be a bit more recoil but it didn't regulate. 4350 would be yet more recoil but it didn't regulate. 4831 did regulate very well also, but the recoil was much more.

You can google "felt recoil calculator" and plug in the details to see the math, but it won't show you the "feeling" that even further accentuates recoil that I'm referring to with the faster powders.

 

[Backyardsniper]

Powder valley has 1lb 3031 in stock. Mid south shooter supply also had 1 lb of it left and I just called and ordered it. They're only about an hour and a half from me so I'm gonna run down there and pick it up. I will give it a try. I have plenty of open cell backer rod.

 

[rookhawk]

Powder valley has 1lb 3031 in stock. Mid south shooter supply also had 1 lb of it left and I just called and ordered it. They're only about an hour and a half from me so I'm gonna run down there and pick it up. I will give it a try. I have plenty of open cell backer rod.

3031 is an amazing powder. With stuffing or backing, it can be used in almost any rifle. Vintage load data exists for it for almost every caliber in the world. There is also a conversion for it, so many grains of cordite equals a % of grains required in IMR3031.

That means if you find an esoteric vintage british gun and you know its cordite load, you have a clue of how to reproduce its general performance with 3031 to get similar regulation.

 

[Backyardsniper]

I should have bought the damn 8lb jug while it was in stock. I will get a supply of it next time is see it. I'm on the way to the LGS to pick up that mannlicher stocked 30/06 I bought from @SkullKeeper the other day and they also have a CZ bobwhite SxS 20 gauge with double triggers and extractors, same as my Krieghoff. I'm gonna pick up while I'm there. A buddy of mine has a bif sporting clay set up so I'm gonna use that 20 gauge as a trainer for the double rifle. Learning to run the double triggers and practicing reloads.

 

[rookhawk]

I should have bought the damn 8lb jug while it was in stock. I will get a supply of it next time is see it. I'm on the way to the LGS to pick up that mannlicher stocked 30/06 I bought from @SkullKeeper the other day and they also have a CZ bobwhite SxS 20 gauge with double triggers and extractors, same as my Krieghoff. I'm gonna pick up while I'm there. A buddy of mine has a bif sporting clay set up so I'm gonna use that 20 gauge as a trainer for the double rifle. Learning to run the double triggers and practicing reloads.

If you have the means, order the 20 gauge barrels for your Krieghoff double rifle. You'll like the practice and you'll love having a shotgun handy on safari for bird and tiny 10 hunting.

 

[Backyardsniper]

I will definitely look into that. They are pricey but it would be super handy to have a set of shotgun barrels to go on that gun for all the above mentioned things, plus if you're gonna have a gun that costs that much you might as well be able to get some use out of it.

 

[Scrumbag]

Ramshot guys are indeed helpful!

 

[Ray B]

With regard to increased recoil due to slower burning powder apart from the various calculations, I think the shape of the pressure curve has effect. With slow powder the pressure is still quite high as the bullet clears the muzzle leading to the jet propulsion effect, whereas the pressure is declining with faster powders so the effect is less. Or is this a result of the slower powder being much louder?