Prehunt evaluation of guide/outfitters.....

[Mr. 16 gauge]

Hello all;
First, a little back story: about 4 years ago, I encouraged a friend to join me on a deer hunt to North Carolina. It was his first out of state/guided hunt, and he was quite excited about it. I thought I had done my homework: checked references, searched for negative comments, etc. Without finding anything negative, I went ahead and booked the hunt. I should add that I usually do my research early (in this case, a year and a half in advance.).

To sum it up, we both had a miserable time. I'll just give a few of the details, but 1 bathroom for 20+ hunters, one small coffee pot for the same, none of the 20 hunters saw deer in five days of hunting, poor food, etc. The "guides" would dump us off at our stands and then go back to work on their houses. The first day, our "guide" proceeded to give us the "rules", telling us "you M****** F***** better stay on you stands; if we find you out wandering, we'll through you a**** off the property!!", and similar threats. This is just a partial list. When complaints started about no one seeing deer, the answers were "well, that's huntin'" and "It's the moon phase". Needless to say, we all felt cheated. He (the owner) offered to refund money to some of the people who complained, but never did according to the posts I've seen on face book. Also, negative posts on face book were quickly "drowned out" but friends and relatives posting "positive" reviews .....not so bright to use the same last name as the owner and claim to be a "client".

So I've decided to try and go again this year with a different outfitter (in the same general area).....my friend had such a negative experience that he is now refusing to go.....anywhere. I think he is convinced that all outfitters are nothing more than scam artists.

So my question is: How do you pre evaluate an outfitter before signing on with them? What are some of the "red flags" that you look for? One thing I've found is some outfitters posting photos/video from other outfitters websites......a definite "red flag" in my book!! I know word of mouth is the best, but what if nobody you know has hunted with said individual before?
Just looking for something that I might not have been aware of. Or is it just "pay your money and take your chances"?
FWIW, I did write letters of complaint to the NC DNR and the local better business bureau......I got replies from no one. I'm assuming now that small town/everybody knows everyone has hushed this up, as I see from his facebook page that even after three years, he is still getting very negative reviews (and they are getting buried....by the same people").
Thanks in advance for any tips/guidance you might be able to give in this matter............

 

[Hogpatrol]

Mr. 16 gauge, Here's my method, I talk to previous clients face to face about their experience at a given hunting venue. The last one I'd believe is the outfitter. In person, one should know when they're being fed a plate of bovine fecal matter. Can't always do that over the phone. and you know the internet can also be useless. The local BBB is another reference to check. Having said that, I've heard more horrors stories about east coast outfitters than any other area of the states. North and South Cacalacky, Georgia and Florida are notorious for failed and overpriced hunts. Except for ND and SD, I prefer the midwest and Texas if I'm going to pay someone to take me hunting.
On the hunting part, I've been "dumped" in the middle of nowhere, told to walk a short distance to my stand and didn't think that much of it. I wouldn't expect someone to take me to a deer stand and sit there with me. I can also see the wandering part not being permitted. I belong to a hunting club that has a dispatcher for the stands. You request a stand for a certain date and you are required to stay there. All a wanderer does is screw it up for those that may be getting ready to take a shot. In that same club, I had a jackass wanderer sneak up and shoot three bolts from his crossbow at my deer decoy. He finally "scored" a gut shot on the last one before I figured out what that whoosh sound was.

 

[BRICKBURN]

How would you screen for the same issues you lived through?
Over crowding
Poor services -
Guarantees - refunds


When I look at a travel website I don't use just the positives, I use the worst rating.
Are they nut cases, difficult people or reasonable folks with a legitimate complaint/concern.
Does the poster have a history of whining?
Patterns...
How did the place deal with it?
Screen for shills. (As noted above same last name and immediate positive replies after a complaint.) Run for the hills if you see a hint of it.)
Comprehend statistics and how to easily screw with them. Facebook. Any idiot can have a FB page.
It takes time effort and investment to have a good webpage.
How long have they been around?
Current pictures?
Search the images they use and see if they stole them. If they stole them, what does that tell you about their ethics/morals?

Ask the nearest competitors if they would recommend the guy?
In North America I'd call the local sporting goods store and ask for a suggestion.

Details
Licenses; Outfitter, PH, Guide. Names, etc.
In RSA, I ask for copies of the CAE's. Outfitter #'s, PH #'s, etc.
Farm names -
Contracts; refund policy

Reluctance in being transparent ensures I move on.
If ONE question is not answered, I move on. Avoided answering or failure to pay attention


Problems they have resolved with clients. None? I doubt it.

Go to this thread and look at the "better" questions to ask.
https://www.africahunting.com/threads/better-questions-to-ask-when-looking-for-a-hunt….23825/


I could go on....

 

[Brent in Az]

If I had a guide call me a Mother F####r, I would probably end up in jail for the night.

 

[Mekaniks]

One of the nice things about the internet is that you really can "out" a poor outfitter and most outfitters can't take much negative publicity. If they are a stand up outfit at all, they will do their best to make it right. Of course this is all after the fact and your hunt may be ruined but at least you may save the next guy some heart burn. I get that FB can be difficult because there are so many people with agendas. But the hunting forums, where hunters actually do reasearch is the best place to post in my opinion. That said, I have been fortunate this far and never had a totally negative outfitter experience...

I guess what I saying in a long around about way, is give us your hunt report from this outfitter so we don't get burned as well

 

[firehuntfish]

If I had a guide call me a Mother F####r, I would probably end up in jail for the night.

I would be right there with you sharing a cell...

 

[CAustin]

All good advice above. Check out any outfitter three different way. One in person at a show or over the phone. Two get references and ask those when you talk to them to give you another reference. Do not just trade emails. Three, now check the website as Wayne mentioned.

 

[Erny]

I choose my outfitters using social media, hunting forums and most importantly word of mouth from friends.

I never believe an outfitter until I have hunted with them. This is especially true in North America. I have been flat out lied to about both the quantity and quality of game in an area, as well as hunting conditions.

The few outfitters I have hunted with that were honest have gotten my repeat business from me and personnel referrals to my friends and associates.

The last thing I even consider is references. Why would an outfitter give you an unhappy customer as a reference. I got bit bad by this on a moose and mountain goat hunt and vowed I would never even call a reference again. It's a waste of time.

African outfitters tend to be more honest in there description of the hunt and trophy quality, than the North American ones .....in my opinion. I have only had one bad experience on an african hunt, do to a a$$hole PH in Namibia.

 

[cagkt3]

+1 on the referrals from folks I know.

Personally, I'm partial to hunting in Texas. A lot of variety in species and terrain.

 

[billc]

I think everyone has what they think is the best way to research outfitters. I do some of the following to help me pick who I hunt with.

What I find to be the most important is do the homework on the area you want to hunt. You should know what game quality is like plus harvest info. In the states that may mean talking with a few outfitters in the area or local game/fish. You find out a good bull elk in the area is a good 6x6 that scores around 300 but they tell you they take most bulls bigger then your being feed a line of bs. The point is know why you want to go hunt the area you pick. With all the hunting sites getting info on any area is pretty easy anymore with some work.

Next one is all depends on what a reference means to you. I get them and have never called one. Have no value to me at all.

The next way over rated one to me is face to face meetings. Outfitters become salesman and unless you can read people most will have you in the palm of there hand within minutes of talking.

Next the website can be good or bad but to me proves very little to me . They are normally built and run by an outside company. I use it to see pictures of animals maybe the lodge and basic info but don't use it for more the that. A website does not make the hunting good or bad.

I ask for pictures of animals hunted for the new year plus pictures of animals living in the areas now to hunt. I look to make sure they have dates on pictures to. If I get all what I know is top end size trophies I may say something or take that as a sign to worry about. I want to see the avg not the biggest ones only.


Now the biggest for me next to my gut feeling is this one. It is emails and what I learn from them. emails give you a paper trail on what you should be getting if you book. A few tricks I use is maybe ask for normally size of animals they hunt. See if those answers compare to what you may have found out. Then about 3 or 4 month later ask again and see if you get the same answers. If that varies to much then you have the signs of things going bad.

I also like to see how fast I get replys. Keeping in mind hunting season time changes and the fact they maybe hunting. But if question go unanswered or it feels like your asking to many question by there response then the signs are starting to show.

Pieter from paw print and myself talked for over a year and I would bet a thousand emails exchanged and all answered. Never felt like I was a bother but felt he wanted my business

Pieter my PH in Namibia was one of the first guys I looked at hunting with and it took me 6 years before I went. Emails over that time was answered and he stayed the same.

Both above outfitters have been two of the best choices I have made to go hunting with . They put in the time to get me to be there client.

One thing some people don't pick up on is good and bad hunts can be decide by you once your there also. Learn this on one of my first guided elk hunts. I was only 23 at the time but loved to hunt. I got to hunt with a young guy my age who could hunt. We left hour before anyone else and got back an hour later. Well after 2 days of seeing elk through hard hunting some guys decide to make a comment to the outfitter I was being treated special. Mine you this is coming for two guys not in shape and in there mid 50's. Let alone one is hunting with the outfitter himself. Outfitter asked me of I mind if my guide took the one guy out for a day. I said no problem at all.

Well I went with the outfitter and even got a shot at a bull that I blew. Those guys went for a long walk same place we had hunted but saw nothing because they could not handle it. When they came back they sang a whole other tone but we all knew there hunt was going down hill now.

All that rambling means a hunter can also make a hunt go bad or really good by there action to. I don't know to many people in life who will go out of there way if you act stupid but treat them right even tough hunts can be good.

 

[MMAL]

I guess my first question from now on is how many hunters do you have in camp at a time and how much land to you have exclusive control over? 20 hunters in camp? That's not a hunting camp that is day care! Then figure out why are you going to NC to shoot deer? Not known for big deer, Is the goal to shoot anything? Next is to do what I do, Find a great booking agent. Doesn't cost you anything extra but worth their weight in gold because they have sent people there before you. My agent I have used to hunt in Alaska, Colorado, Newfoundland, Canada and Africa. FYI, He put me onto Jerome of this site to hunt Namibia. That was before I knew about this site. He will tell you what you are having for breakfast on the third day of the hunt. Find a good one or PM me and I will tell you who mine is. Good luck.

 

[Red Leg]

I also use a hunting consultant for most of my hunts - And I am happy to tell you mine - Jack Atcheson Jr. - http://www.atcheson.com/ - there are others. Never, ever been steered wrong. He makes a living weeding out the bad apples and making sure your hunt exceeds your expectations.

 

[Mekaniks]

The one bad experience I have had so far, was with an agent. The hunt turned out really good in the end, but the agent was a moron. Kind of turned me off to agents. But that said, I think there are some really good agents out there (I didn't know back then) and I think they defiantly have their place.

 

[salesman]

I understand that the OP's objective with this thread is to discuss how to find quality outfitters, and this is AH; but whoever that outfitter in NC is needs to be exposed.

 

[jeff]

I like to talk face to face at a show and after time you will get a feel if it's the right place. There's BS ing booking agents just like some outfitters. You can have a poor hunt at a good place and even crappy outfitters can be successful sometimes, if it sounds too good to be true it almost always is! Nothing more disappointing than having your outfitter not really prepared for your hunt and just trying to wing it and hope for the best.

 

[oldhoward]

It is always scare to use a outfitter you don't know. Do diligence checking them out the best you can and pray for the best. I have hunted Texas most of my life and only had one bad experience, the property burned the week before hunting season, an act of god. There are many good places to hunt in Texas, mostly word of mouth, or use the chamber of commerce's in the ares you would like to hunt. I would avoid facebook and places like that.
I went to Africa and was so glad to meet my ph at the airport, I was scared to death of no one showing up! I had a great time in Africa, but it was a lot of work almost two years sorting through folks.
The language that was used in the original post would be fighting words in Texas, there is a lot of empty land out here.

 

[Kowas Adventure Safaris]

Mr 16 gauge
Welcome to this awesome Forum.
Enjoy the planning process to replace BAD experiences with GOOD ones...

 

[HiredGun]

Check Outfitters website. Be sure Outfitter lists his physical address, email and Telephone. Confirm independently with (Government Agency administering Hunting in Outfitters State/Province/Country) that he has been in Business longer then 5 years. Ask for a sample of Contract you and him will sign before Money is exchanged. Remember, verbal agreements are not worth the paper they are written on.
Outside hunting season, If Outfitter is slow responding to your Call/email and or is vague/non specific you can expect that is what you get if problems arise. Keep a daily Journal of your hunt.

Cheers