Old gun accuracy

[TokkieM]

A lot has been made of modern rifle accuracy, almost every rifle manufacturer has a 1 MOA spec for their rifles, some with specific ammo requirements others with any ammo. I have owned a few new rifles that would print sub half MOA with factory ammo, nice guns, but no soul. Now I own mostly old rifles, the youngest around 40 years old. My latest favorite is a 65 year old Brno ZG 47 in 30-06, the rifle is standard except for some cosmetic changes to the stock and a few adjustments to the factory trigger. Attached is a photo of a 3 shot group with Norma TipStrike ammo, blocks are 1cm in size. I have owned a few old guns and most of them have shot sub MOA groups with factory ammo if I do my bit. Which raises the question, in 65 years should the 1 MOA standard not have improved as technology advanced?
On a side note, this is a CRF rifle and many rate them less prone to accuracy than a pushfeed, for hunting i see no difference in accuracy.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

TokkieM
Love my old rifles. 2 of my most accurate are a 1885 lowall made in 1891. Converted it to 22K Hornet shoots 3 shot groups of o.3 inch all day.
My 1914 P14 converted to 25/303 Epps improved attached is a photo of the rifle and a 200 yard group with 117sst

 

[Ridgewalker]

The oldest long gun I have owned and shot (had a Spencer, a Shutzen from the 1920s and a cap and ball from the 1800s) was an old uncle’s 1950 Win Mdl 70 30-06 I inherited. He never had a scope on it, so I installed a VX-II 3-9x on it. My handloads would produce clusters at 100 yards with each hole touching. Wonderful old warrior it is. After taking a number of antelope, deer and elk, I passed it on to a nephew who loves it!

 

[James Adamson]

New guns cant always be relied on to produce tight groups. I had 2 brand new Remington 700 BDL's that couldn't shoot, both ended up being cut up a dumped. The first one couldn't keep all the bullets on an A4 sheet of paper and was replaced under warranty. The next one wasnt much better, 4-5 inch groups at best. Beautifully finished guns but not much use if they cant shoot.

 

[bruce moulds]

james,
I had both a sako and a ruger that would not stay on a piece of foolscap at 100.
the aust agents for both rifles were missing in action when approached.
generally speaking rifles from 40 years ago used to shoot very well if bedded and floated properly and had their triggers done.
bruce.

 

[perttime]

I suspect modern/new rifles are more consistent. You are MORE LIKELY to get an accurate one out of the box.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

james,
I had both a sako and a ruger that would not stay on a piece of foolscap at 100.
the aust agents for both rifles were missing in action when approached.
generally speaking rifles from 40 years ago used to shoot very well if bedded and floated properly and had their triggers done.
bruce.

Bruce moulds
Sounds like you are in OZ where about are you mate. My philosophy is buy an old gun cheap find a good gunsmith and build what you want. About the same price as a good new one. The rifle in my post cost me $1,300 all up for a full custom job including the initial price of the rifle.

 

[James Adamson]

james,
I had both a sako and a ruger that would not stay on a piece of foolscap at 100.
the aust agents for both rifles were missing in action when approached.
generally speaking rifles from 40 years ago used to shoot very well if bedded and floated properly and had their triggers done.
bruce.

I am surprised at the sako not shooting well, sako rifles are usually very accurate out of the box.

 

[Shootist43]

It seems to me that most of my older rifles will in fact outshoot the newer ones. None of my Swedish Mausers are under 100 years old. They don't leave anything on the table accuracy wise compared to any of the modern 6.5(s).

 

[Hogpatrol]

A lot has been made of modern rifle accuracy, almost every rifle manufacturer has a 1 MOA spec for their rifles, some with specific ammo requirements others with any ammo. I have owned a few new rifles that would print sub half MOA with factory ammo, nice guns, but no soul. Now I own mostly old rifles, the youngest around 40 years old. My latest favorite is a 65 year old Brno ZG 47 in 30-06, the rifle is standard except for some cosmetic changes to the stock and a few adjustments to the factory trigger. Attached is a photo of a 3 shot group with NormaTipStrike ammo, blocks are 1cm in size. I have owned a few old guns and most of them have shot sub MOA groups with factory ammo if I do my bit. Which raises the question, in 65 years should the 1 MOA standard not have improved as technology advanced?
On a side note, this is a CRF rifle and many rate them less prone to accuracy than a View attachment 325148pushfeed, for hunting i see no difference in accuracy.

Good enough for hunting at 100 yards/meters.

 

[Wyatt Smith]

With my 1958 model 70 30-06, I get 1.5 inch groups at 100 yards with most any ammunition. With my reloads I can get it a little bit better, but 1.5” is good enough for me.

 

[bruce moulds]

Bruce moulds
Sounds like you are in OZ where about are you mate. My philosophy is buy an old gun cheap find a good gunsmith and build what you want. About the same price as a good new one. The rifle in my post cost me $1,300 all up for a full custom job including the initial price of the rifle.

bob,
in sth oz just out of Adelaide.
the heart of a rifle is its action.
go from there with what you want and add bits till you have what you want.
experience has taken me down the road to m70 type and mauser for hunting.
use good bits.
bruce.

 

[Major Khan]

The oldest fire arm which l have ever owned is also the 1 which l use most.

Is is a 12 calibre double barreled side by side shot gun made in Belgium with 3 inch chambers , extractors and 28 inch long barrels ( Left barrel is fully choked . Right barrel is modified choke . ) I have owned it since 1959 when l bought it from a British tea garden owner who was leaving back to Great Britain . I have always taken extreme care of the gun and kept it in pristine condition with good maintenance . I used it to back up clients during my 10 year career as a professional shikaree in Nagpur , India , as well as for my personal hunting purposes. Loaded with hand loaded Eley 3 inch spherical ball cartridges , it helped me account for 20 forest panthers , 12 royal Bengal tigers ( although to be fair , 11 of them were already wounded by the client ) , countless gaur , countless water buffalo , countless Asian Sloth Bear , countless wild boars and countless game for the pot ( various species of deer , water fowl , jungle fowl , Neelgai , 4 horned buck , black buck , Chinkara ) . It has never let me down in 60 years even once .
Even today , it is my favorite gun to shoot and use for all my year round hunting . I do own 2 other fire arms as well. However , my " Old Belgian " will always be my favorite gun .

 

[bruce moulds]

khan,
more accurate is 12 gauge, rather than 12 calibre.
gauge is the number of lead round balls of whatever diameter fites the calibre.
calibre is the diameter of the inside of the barrel.
if a rifled barrel, there is bore diameter and groove diameter.
bruce.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

bob,
in sth oz just out of Adelaide.
the heart of a rifle is its action.
go from there with what you want and add bits till you have what you want.
experience has taken me down the road to m70 type and mauser for hunting.
use good bits.
bruce.

Bruce moulds
My parents lived in Victor harbour for some time and I have relations in Murray Bridge.
Have you hunted water valley, looks like they have some cracking deer

 

[bruce moulds]

do you mean watervale?
no on both counts, but the clare /watervale area is noted for deer.
bruce.

 

[smokepole]

I did not know they made new rifles. My old model 70's do more than I can. Have never bought a new gun. My 375 I bought 50 years ago before moving to Alaska. Never looked back.

 

[wvhunt]

I am surprised at the sako not shooting well, sako rifles are usually very accurate out of the box.

I agree. That Sako had some major problem. Every Sako I've owned or shot has been very accurate. I shot one full stocked Sako that wasn't great, but I believe with a little work it could have been improved.

 

[fourfive8]

I really enjoy shooting old guns. The two oldest I have direct experience with are 216 and 170 years old. If kept in historical context, the good ones can be astounding even by today's standards. There are several "old" rifles that I have owned and shot that are truly excellent, accurate shooters. One I just sold and I hope the new owner realizes what he has! It is a Winchester M1886 in 33 Winchester- not the most likely candidate, but.... The other is an original Sharps M1874 in 44-90. That rifle, with the right cast bullet (or PP swaged), lives up to the accuracy legend for which the Sharps rifles are known.

Here's a target shot with an original M1841, 54 cal "Mississippi" Rifle shooting a hollow base Minie', Crisco lubed, over 55 gr FFg BP.

5 shots, at 50 yards off a rest. Rifle has original simple, dovetail rear sight (as shown in photo) and small 'barley corn' type front blade. POI exactly at POA

 

[fourfive8]

Another I just thought of that really surprised me is a US M 1842 Percussion Pistol by I.N. Johnson. It's a 54 caliber smoothbore that shoots a .530 patched roundball over a moderate charge of about 30 gr of FFg BP. I've shot it a few times and unlike most of the smoothbore muskets I've shot, this thing is truly accurate within its useful range. I remember shooting it off the bench at a target at 20 yards and shot after shot, about 10 in the string IIRC, went into a perfect 2" cluster right on the point of aim. Sorry, the target is buried in a pile or targets in storage. Some refer to these as "Horse Pistols" and they saw quite a bit of horse mounted action in the Civil War. Will include a pic of the pistol though.

Other notable old guns that have shot extremely well for me include: a high serial Springfield 03 and a four groove 03-A3, both with regular 150 gr ball type ammo loaded with moderate charges of 4895 (basically the same as I load for the Garand).

A 577 cal P53 Enfield Artillery (Rifle) Carbine, a 577 P53 Enfield Rifle Musket and a US M 1863 TII Rifle Musket. Both the British designed and built p53s shoot 57 caliber pure lead Minie's over about 60 gr of FFg BP. They will shoot almost as tight a group as the US rifle muskets I have- particularly the P53 carbine, yet another surprise! The US M 1863 shoots a 58 caliber pure lead Minie' also over about 60 gr of FFg BP. I'll include pics of the P53s and the US M 1863 w/target.

The M 1863 target was shot with an RCBS pure lead Minie' lubed with Crisco over 60 gr FFg BP off the bench at 50 yards- three shots. POI is about 4 inches above POA at 50 yds - seems very common with these issue rifle muskets. The small hole below the bull was there when I pulled this Shoot-N-C out of the trash can at the range