Need help with research...

[Kat M]

Hi Everyone,

I'll start by being upfront, I'm no fan of trophy hunting and struggle to understand why people would want to do it. So, as part of my university dissertation, I have decided to research it further, from both sides. The point in a dissertation is to offer opinions from each side and then draw a conclusion. I have decided to research lion and elephant numbers in two different African countries, one with a ban on hunting; Kenya, and one without; Zimbabwe. From my initial assessment, it does look as though the numbers of lions in Kenya has fallen dramatically in the last 20 years, whereas in Zimbabwe they have increased. This did come as a surprise, but has left me feeling a little more open-minded.

So why am I on a hunting forum? I'm not here to change peoples minds,I'm not a crazy activist who is trying to get into your heads - I'm not clever enough for that! I respect that everyone makes choices based on their experiences, and just because our views differ, does not make either of us wrong. I'd just really like to understand why people hunt. I have a few questions, and if anyone would like to answer them, I'd really appreciate your views - if not, I completely understand:

- When did you first get into hunting?
- Do you enjoy it, and if so what is the best part?
- Some hunters have pets at home who they adore, how do you separate this from what you do?
- Have you personally noticed any changes in animal population numbers since you started hunting?
- Do you have any moral objections to certain types of hunting i.e. is there anything you simply wouldn't do?
- Have there been any low points for you when hunting?

Any advice or personal stories you can offer would be much appreciated, and thank you in advance for taking the time to read this post.

Kat

 

[CAustin]

Kat it's not hard to understand really. The decline of wild game in Kenya is because of poaching not hunting. The lack of hunting has impacted funds to provide anti poaching activities and professionals dedicated to oversight of the wildlife. Consider that in The early 1970s the elephant population was well over 100,000 in Kenya. Last report I saw indicated that the same elephant population is less than 10,000. Hunters didn't destroy the elephant in Kenya. Poaching did.
You mention Zimbabwe and I can tell you that any big five hunt there requires a government official to go along. The hunter pays for that. Tags and fees in many African countries pays for the protection, conservation if you will, of the wildlife population. The employment of many people has depended upon the hunting of wild game. A hunt in South Africa will employ nine people for a year.
Good luck on your work!

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

Hi Everyone,

I'll start by being upfront, I'm no fan of trophy hunting and struggle to understand why people would want to do it. So, as part of my university dissertation, I have decided to research it further, from both sides. The point in a dissertation is to offer opinions from each side and then draw a conclusion. I have decided to research lion and elephant numbers in two different African countries, one with a ban on hunting; Kenya, and one without; Zimbabwe. From my initial assessment, it does look as though the numbers of lions in Kenya has fallen dramatically in the last 20 years, whereas in Zimbabwe they have increased. This did come as a surprise, but has left me feeling a little more open-minded.

So why am I on a hunting forum? I'm not here to change peoples minds,I'm not a crazy activist who is trying to get into your heads - I'm not clever enough for that! I respect that everyone makes choices based on their experiences, and just because our views differ, does not make either of us wrong. I'd just really like to understand why people hunt. I have a few questions, and if anyone would like to answer them, I'd really appreciate your views - if not, I completely understand:

- When did you first get into hunting?
- Do you enjoy it, and if so what is the best part?
- Some hunters have pets at home who they adore, how do you separate this from what you do?
- Have you personally noticed any changes in animal population numbers since you started hunting?
- Do you have any moral objections to certain types of hunting i.e. is there anything you simply wouldn't do?
- Have there been any low points for you when hunting?

Any advice or personal stories you can offer would be much appreciated, and thank you in advance for taking the time to read this post.

Kat

- When did you first get into hunting?
When I was in college.

- Do you enjoy it, and if so what is the best part?
If I didn't enjoy it, I probably wouldn't do it. So yes, in fact I love it. Hard to answer what the best part is. There are so many aspects of hunting that make up the entire experience. But it's easy to tell you what the worst part is and that would be the moment after the trigger is pulled or the arrow is sent. I want the animal down and I want it down quickly. I do not wish to see the animal suffer. As such until I see the animal has expired, I'm feeling pressure to ensure that it is.

- Some hunters have pets at home who they adore, how do you separate this from what you do?
Unless you're a vegetarian, you already know the answer to that question. If you eat meat how do you resolve cutting into a steak, sausage, chop while your dog sits by your side begging for a share?

- Have you personally noticed any changes in animal population numbers since you started hunting?
Yes, there are far more whitetail deer in the USA then there ever has been. The same goes for wild turkey and other species here. This includes predators such as mountain lion which are gaining in population in the eastern half of the country where when I was a kid were unheard of.

- Do you have any moral objections to certain types of hunting i.e. is there anything you simply wouldn't do?
There are various regulations in place that are intended to ensure various things from healthy populations to safety of others. If "types of hunting" fall within the parameters of being legal than I take no issue with it. Otherwise if it is considered illegal, I won't do it. That said at times the laws should be reviewed as there may need to be reconsideration for whether "it" should be legal or illegal.

- Have there been any low points for you when hunting?
Yes, the lowest being when I lost a deer I knew I had wounded. Meaning I did not recover the deer. If that deer died and I actually don't think it did, it was wasted and thats what bothers me. That was well over 20 years ago and it still bothers me.

In addition to what Charlie posted above I would add that loss of habitat is also a huge contributor to the decline in wildlife. I would also add that I hate the term "trophy hunting." It's just hunting. The main reason I hate the term is it suggests to many and possibly you too that when someone goes "trophy hunting" that it is merely for the head. That the meat is left on the ground and is wasted. This is simply not true. The meat in most cases is utilized to feed people.

I applaud you're willingness to take an objective look at hunting. I would say you're in a predicament in your mind about hunting. Do you want to follow ideology in that you don't wish to see animals suffer and therefore hunting should be banned? Or do you look at the realities of following that ideology as can be seen in the results in Kenya and follow a more pragmatic path? The pragmatic path being that with regulated hunting animal populations are managed and to be healthy.

 

[vinnymbogo]

I hunt because I'm a hunter: genetically predetermined. Example: if you have a house cat (they've been domesticated for a couple of thousand years); they do not need to hunt as they are fed, and housed; yet you put them outside, they will hunt rodents and birds because it is in their nature. Simple as that!

 

[Shootist43]

Kat, I'm 73 years old and I've been a Hunter Education Instructor for the past 30 years. My suggestion to you is that you enroll in a Hunter Education class near you to see and understand why hunting is necessary for the continued conservation of wildlife. Any given size space has a "carrying capacity" meaning the number of wild animals it can support. Beyond that number the animals become weak and die from disease or starvation. Hunters help prevent this. Trophy hunting is an evolutionary process, one starts out generally as a meat hunter i.e. one who is putting meat on his table and it goes on from there. My two primary hunting partners are my sons, one a Mechanical Engineer and the other a Minister. We have been hunting together for over 35 years, you could say it is a family thing. Now they are bringing their children on our family hunts. Are you beginning to see the picture. Hunters have a profound respect for nature and wildlife. We want to see it passed down to future generations.

Spend some time on this site and you will see that the animals Trophy Hunters harvest are old bulls beyond their prime, leaving the younger ones to insure the future of the species.

I hope you do give us a fair representation in your dissertation. Most academicians and or journalists do not. Like Charlie mentioned in his previous post, Trophy Hunting is what pays for Wildlife Conservation in most African countries.

 

[Scott Slough]

Kat,

I am dubious about your dissertation claim. I am a professor who wrote a dissertation and have guided several others, and I promise you that you would NEVER be allowed to collect data on a listserv without identifying your ENTIRE name, address, contact information, university where the research is occurring, the name and contact information of your dissertation chair, any potential impacts on the individuals providing responses, how you will handle identities of respondents ... I could go on all day ... but MOST importantly a RESEARCHER is NEVER EVER against something they are researching. Your opening statement exposes your bias and precludes your doing research on this subject for ANY reputable university.

 

[lcq]

Kat,

I am dubious about your dissertation claim. I am a professor who wrote a dissertation and have guided several others, and I promise you that you would NEVER be allowed to collect data on a listserv without identifying your ENTIRE name, address, contact information, university where the research is occurring, the name and contact information of your dissertation chair, any potential impacts on the individuals providing responses, how you will handle identities of respondents ... I could go on all day ... but MOST importantly a RESEARCHER is NEVER EVER against something they are researching. Your opening statement exposes your bias and precludes your doing research on this subject for ANY reputable university.

well done Scott you caught the Troll

 

[Kat M]

OK, before this gets out of hand, I can assure you I'm no troll. I have been studying part time for the last 6 years with the Open University here in the UK towards a BSc Environmental Sciences. My intention was not to quote any of you or collect data, it was purely to gain an understanding. To say that researchers are never against what they are researching is wholly untrue, certainly in scientific circles - otherwise how would you ever learn? Currently, yes, I am a little bias, I live in a society where I am exposed to grotesque images and bias media reporting, but through research and education hopefully I can become less so. I'll be honest, I don't think I could ever hunt, but that does not mean I will judge those who do. From what I have seen and heard so far, it does appear that hunting is good for conservation and that is something I would like to explore further.

 

[Buckdog]

Kat, I call you out as anti TROLL also! good job Scott! Sorry kat or anti/ troll I have spent many a yr in universities too and one of my degrees is a M.S. Zoology. If you were for real and your school was reputable you should understand animal population dynamics, economics etc. calling TROLL!!/

 

[Rob404]

Why do we waste time even responding to these Morons,go lick a tree

 

[LivingTheDream]

@Kat M - if you are not a troll please don't be offended, as you mentioned the media does not portray us in a very positive light and anti's come on this website all the time even today this site had a DDOS attack, so we tend to circle the wagons.

With that being said, I will gladly take the time to answer your questions troll or not because maybe my experiences can help open your mind a little.

My dad started carrying me along when I was about 3 on hunts with the bird dogs, he didn't carry a gun and they were only 30 minute sessions but he got to spend time with me and got the dogs some practice. But this bond with my dad and the love of the outdoors was set in motion. By 10, my dad had to work Saturdays but my grandfather took me, on holidays we all hunted together. It was this family time that started it all. I spent time hunting with my dads friends who where much older then me (40 to 50 years older). But they had the experience and I had a strong back to carry decoys or drag a deer. Spending that much time in the woods together you hear a lot of stories but you it also gives you an appreciation for all of the little things we take for granted today. More importantly, it teaches you ethics, right and wrong, legal and illegal, and a better appreciation for life. I think that answers question 1.

I enjoy getting out there. To push myself physically and mentally, and just to see different things. Animals always amaze me, and just being out there during the prime times you will see some cool things. In the past 3 hunts this year, I called a raccoon onto the tree next to me, saw two little deer fight (funny when they don't have antlers) and had an owls, yes owls, land with in 10 yards of me and didn't want to leave even though I stood up and waved at them.

No real response to question 3. I don't look at a steak as my pet.

I have seen population increase, deer and turkeys are the big ones on the east coast. We used to not have any turkeys now we have a lot!!! NWTF has done a great job! Look at any sheep hunting organization, there are more sheep due to the conservation dollars of hunters. Same principle applies to African game as well.

I do have some moral objections but I don't voice them in public, they are my morals and everyone's is different. If people act ethically (quickly harvesting the animal) and legally, I dont object. There is too much fighting in the world today, I am not going to fight with someone over how they want to hunt.

There is always lows, I lost a deer (turns out it was a non fatal hit, got it the next year), but for 8 months I was sick, until he showed up with a scar on his shoulder!!! I have missed, which is always a beat yourself up moment. I have been lost, I have been cold (I know what the first couple of signs of frostbite are), I have been hungry, physically so sore I could barely walk. It's all part of it, its part of the experience, to keep pushing, to go farther, to stay out longer. You never know what's around the next corner, what will come by next, or what might happen. I have chased down elephant from sun up to sun down, stared a Rhino down with a dart gun at 12 yards, shot a lion at 10 yards, and took a 250lb black bear with my bow at 18 yards. All while meeting the best people you can meet, seeing some of the most beautiful places on earth. Now honestly, if you did all that, would you be content just going to Starbucks down the street on a Saturday morning?

 

[mrpoindexter]

Kat,

You can look at one specific animal to track populations, but if you look at overall numbers, from what I hear Kenya has lost 70% of their wildlife since their 1977 total ban on hunting. During roughly that same time period, South Africa has seen their animal populations rise from 600,000 to currently between 18 and 24 million. Where Kenya banned hunting, South Africa has embraced it.

Poaching aside, once hunting is banned, there is no "value" these animals have outside of tourism at a national park and unless you own a national park, the kudu or bushbuck that is eating your crops or leopard eating your livestock are both the exact same thing - a nuisance. Economics and the tragedy of the commons will dictate that these animals will completely disappear in Kenya outside of any protected park they have. These same economic drivers can be redirected to increase populations through private ownership of animals and allowing privately managed hunts on private land for economic gain.

All of the arguments against hunting are emotional. Every argument fails to make it in a logical basis because the facts are not on their side (unless they try to group poaching and hunting together and they are NOT the same).

I had never been hunting in my life until one month ago when I went on a safari. It was the best vacation of my life. I already have another booked for next July.

As for my pet dog - do we ask the same thing about cattle ranchers who grow beef? They have a rule on ranches - don't name the animals. They are not pets. Never name anything you might have to eat. Your question about the family pets is ludicrous on its face. Perhaps if I was bow hunting miniature french poodles and had one at home that might be a valid question, but a pet dog or cat is not the same as a kudu or a lion.

As for what I would not hunt - a mountain gorilla. That said, if I saw a kid fall into the cage and I had a CCW, that gorilla would be dead very quickly without one shred of guilty conscience. Human life is simply worth more than animal life. Period. Unfortunately, our society is sick in the head where we thing that animal life is worth the same as human life and the same people who oppose hunting also are strongly in favor of protecting abortion. It is odd, because these are the same goofy people who tell me I don't need an AR-15 to hunt and therefore should not be able to own one, but then get all bent out of shape when I go hunting. Yet they tell me that not only do we need to allow gay marriage, we have to bake a cake for them if they come into our bakery and that we can't just say "ok, but keep it in the closet" and "don't ask, don't tell" but we have to openly accept them for who they are and accept their lifestyle. Yet they don't want to accept who we are and our lifestyle.

We are human beings. We ARE the apex of the food chain. We eat meat. We hunt. Not only are we the only natural predators for many animals that need to have their populations managed because they don't manage their own populations, but we are also the only predator that has both the capability and desire to manage animal populations for preservation. Lions never pass on hunting animals that are endangered. They don't ignore animals of breeding age or lower. It is in our nature to be the apex predator. Those who try to deny us that are denying our own human nature. These are also the same people who do not recognize us as being a part of nature. They view cities as unnatural. They are completely natural - you find them everywhere you find people. Birds build nests. Termites build mounds. People build cities. And how it is that a beaver can build a dam and that is nature but if a man does, it is not?

Since I started hunting, I noticed the animal population in the area I was in dropping by an animal or two each day. The people who owned the land had a financial incentive to breed more and I expect there to be more animals born to replace that that were hunted - much like my continual eating of steak and eggs has not really cut into the cow and chicken populations in my home country.

Finally, the two low points I had - one was when I had a wounded animal get away. That sucked. The second was when I headed home from my safari with a huge amount of new experiences that I wanted to share with people, but everywhere I looked on the plane home, people had headphones on and were watching a tv set or playing a game on their phone. I realized I was back in "the real world" but wondered how real it really is.

Much like Ernest Hemingway, my goal now is to earn enough money to go back to Africa.

 

[wesheltonj]

6 years at Open University and still not even a BSc degree? Sorry, I say troll too, I know a little something about university work too, sign me: BBA, MSc, JD. Dissertation for a BSc, really?

And by the way, your "Dissertation" has been research many times, I would suggest you look at ICUN.

 

[Hogpatrol]

Couldn't a researcher just check with the local SCI chapter or sportsman's club? With proper credentials it shouldn't be a problem interviewing some local hunters.

 

[Kat M]

Thank you to those of you who have taken the time to respond, this is greatly appreciated and has certainly helped me to better understand the benefits of hunting. I don't think I'll ever be a total convert, but I can see that hunting can help to protect species and their habitats, and in that way it can be a good thing.

I still firmly believe that all animals should be considered collectively, as humans too, are technically classed as animals. But I respect your opinions on this, and take your point that any meat eater should really be willing to do the dirty work.. I do like a good game pie after all, so I am somewhat of a hypercrite but this is food for thought I guess.

For those of you who were not so willing to help, this is a shame, the name calling was quite unnecessary. I feel the need to explain further just to put people's minds at ease who have helped. Despite what some of you may think, I am studying towards a BSc and as I have been working in a full time job whilst doing this, it has taken double the time of a regular university i.e. 6 years, and therefore I am due to complete within the next month. The Open University is well regarded in the world rankings, but here is a link in case anyone is interested: http://www.open.ac.uk/. I now understand that the word "dissertation" may have caused confusion, this is something we also complete in the final year of an undergraduate degree here in the UK, our Masters and Doctoral degrees complete something far lengthier and in depth which we then call a Thesis, however my piece of work is only 5000 words. I am not an official researcher and have limited time and accessibility to really look into, and therefore understand this issue, due to employment commitments, and also the lack of hunting clubs in the UK.

Thank you again to those who took the time to read and respond. Please know that this has helped me to understand the positive sides to hunting, and this will very much be reflected in my final piece of work.

Kat.

 

[greyfox]

6 years at Open University and still not even a BSc degree?

I spent 4 years in the 9th grade, but it was because the teacher's were HOT and my hormones were raging.......

 

[BRICKBURN]

..........

Thank you again to those who took the time to read and respond. Please know that this has helped me to understand the positive sides to hunting, and this will very much be reflected in my final piece of work.

Kat.

I would be interested to see this final work.

 

[wesheltonj]

Kat,
I know a little something about Open University and U.K. Education and degrees. I was aware that Open was distance based at your pace and not a "Royal Charter" university. But I also know that bachelor degrees come in two flavors: BSc and BSc(Hon), Masters in two flavors: MSc and MPhil and that the only U.K. degree other then PhD that required original research was the MPhil. I have never heard of a BSc requiring original research. And just to let you know, I was admitted to Wales for a MSc in Economics/PhD in Finance but did not attend and London for a LLM and attend one year but did not finish. And by the way I worked full time while working on my JD degree and finished in three years. Sorry that you took offense but your post did not sound right to me based on my personal knowledge of the U.K. University system for an American.

 

[mrpoindexter]

For me, what I found odd was the question of how to reconcile being a hunter and having a pet, as though our desire to hunt came from a hatred of animals. It would be like asking how a veterinarian could have a pet yet be willing to put old and sick animals to sleep. It just sounds like a question that is either loaded, or comes from somebody who just at a fundamental level has no clue what hunting is about.

 

[Divernhunter]

^^^ Or life