Kynoch Tropical cans?

[ChooChoo404]

Is there a way to age a can lacking paper labelling or stampings showing year of production?

How old would an intact can have to be before you became reluctant to use those cartridges?

 

[Sika98k]

If you are unsure of the ammunition I wouldn’t use it hunting something that could mess up your day if things went sideways.
Use it for practice possibly.

 

[deewayne2003]

Don’t quote me on it but I believe those tropical tins were manufactured as late as 1950; late being a relative term as I wouldn’t shoot ammo that is at least 75 years old.

Another consideration is that if they were loaded with cordite, if they were the cordite could have degraded over time.

Might be worth more as a sealed tin to collectors.

Just out of curiosity- what caliber is it?

 

[Huvius]

Most of the tins have individual boxes inside that will have a lot/date code on them.

 

[skydiver386]

From my training in explosives and propellants, the primers are likely the first thing to go bad. No matter what type of propellants were used, the storage temperature is the deciding factor in how much the powder or cordite has degraded.

If it's been stored in a dry place at 50f, it may be perfectly good for well over 50 years, but if it's been stored in an attic with daytime highs in the summer of 140f, less than 10 years and it becomes unsafe. Degraded propellants usually act like a squib load.

 

[grand veneur]

If the ammunition is not in its original box, the year of production cannot be determined. Kynoch discontinued production of cordite-loaded cartridges in the early 1970s. Generally, the age of ammunition plays in theory no role in its usability if it was stored under good conditions, but in practice no one knows how well or poorly the best stored ammunition will age, especially that loaded with cordite. The primers are often the first to fail and cordite develops into an explosive when it decomposes. If the storage is unknown, the ammunition should not be used.

I got a lot of ammunition from the 1950s and 1960s with an old double rifle. I dismantled all cartridges that were not in their original box. I saw that more than a third of the primers no longer fired and that the cordite in almost all cartridges no longer had its original appearance. By destroying a considerable amount of cordite on a military site, I was also able to assess the explosive power of this old cordite. I looked inside some of the cartridges in the boxes in very good shape and, due to their good condition, fired two old cartridges loaded with cordite and also two reloaded cartridges with new primers, new bullets by using a cordite load in very good condition. I will not share any technical instructions for the last. As an African big and dangerous game hunter, you have to smell cordite early in the morning at least once in your life. It went without problems, was accurate in a double rifle regulated for, but I will not repeat the experiment.

 

[ChooChoo404]

The cal is .470.

As tempting as it is to get some .470 at $10 a pop, sounds like I’m taking too big a risk at least cash risk.

I wanted it for practice not hunting.

 

[ChooChoo404]

Thanks for all the good info!

 

[cajunchefray]

If the ammunition is not in its original box, the year of production cannot be determined. Kynoch discontinued production of cordite-loaded cartridges in the early 1970s. Generally, the age of ammunition plays in theory no role in its usability if it was stored under good conditions, but in practice no one knows how well or poorly the best stored ammunition will age, especially that loaded with cordite. The primers are often the first to fail and cordite develops into an explosive when it decomposes. If the storage is unknown, the ammunition should not be used.

I got a lot of ammunition from the 1950s and 1960s with an old double rifle. I dismantled all cartridges that were not in their original box. I saw that more than a third of the primers no longer fired and that the cordite in almost all cartridges no longer had its original appearance. By destroying a considerable amount of cordite on a military site, I was also able to assess the explosive power of this old cordite. I looked inside some of the cartridges in the boxes in very good shape and, due to their good condition, fired two old cartridges loaded with cordite and also two reloaded cartridges with new primers, new bullets by using a cordite load in very good condition. I will not share any technical instructions for the last. As an African big and dangerous game hunter, you have to smell cordite early in the morning at least once in your life. It went without problems, was accurate in a double rifle regulated for, but I will not repeat the experiment.

Thanks for sharing your experiences with old cordite ammunition.
As I have never enjoyed the experience of smelling cordite in the morning in the African bushveld, what does it smell like?
I know black powder has its own smell.
IMR 3031 smells of ammonia to me.
Alliant 2400 has its own “fireworks “ smell.
Just really curious.

 

[grand veneur]

The smell after shooting did not surprise me. It smells mostly like our NC powder, but since the nitroglycerin content is high, it would perhaps more comparable to double base powder. I could not detect the acetone smell that some people have described, but perhaps this refers to the smell of unburned cordite, where acetone was used for gelation. Cordite feels a bit moist when it is in good condition.

I think the romantic side of the cordite smell early in the morning comes from the transition era black powder to nitrocellulose powder, where the people after a shot smelled something more pleasant than rotten eggs after a black powder shot.

 

[Forrest Halley]

The cal is .470.

As tempting as it is to get some .470 at $10 a pop, sounds like I’m taking too big a risk at least cash risk.

I wanted it for practice not hunting.

You could always pull it and reload it...

 

[318AE]

Is there a way to age a can lacking paper labelling or stampings showing year of production?

How old would an intact can have to be before you became reluctant to use those cartridges?

While they are super cool, their value is really only as a collector item - to place on a shelf in your trophy room or similar. Once you open it, it has less value.

You will almost certainly find some non-reloadable, berdan primed, cordite loaded ammunition. It’s no longer reliable ammunition. It does have a distinct smell that is interesting. Be sure an thoroughly clean your rifle afterwards - it is corrosive. I think I have a few 5 packs of the old Kynoch in 470. PM me if you want some of that to play with.

 

[Forrest Halley]

You could always pull it and reload it...

Nevermind if it's Berdan.

 

[Huvius]

Nevermind if it's Berdan.

Not up to the challenge?
I know, dealing with Berdan primers is a chore but it is still possible.
Also, I believe that cordite isn’t necessarily corrosive but the old primers were the corrosive component.
Cordite does burn hotter than NC powders as I understand it so many vintage rifles have more throat degradation, 303s in particular.

 

[PCC600]

Not up to the challenge?
I know, dealing with Berdan primers is a chore but it is still possible.
Also, I believe that cordite isn’t necessarily corrosive but the old primers were the corrosive component.
Cordite does burn hotter than NC powders as I understand it so many vintage rifles have more throat degradation, 303s in particular.

The issue was not the cordite . It was mercury fulminate in the old primers which damaged the barrels .

 

[ChooChoo404]

Glad I asked. All very illuminating.

I’m thinking it’s been debated thoroughly and then some so I dont want to open up the can of worms of cost/benefit of reloading.

Pretty sure that I at least cannot improve on modern factory ammo and its pricing, given that I would be tooling up from scratch.

Now if I could find a reloader in Fairfax/Loudoun Cos to teach me, let me use his gear, the equation becomes more favorable. Right? Wrong?

 

[grand veneur]

The cases we are talking about in post # 6 are all Berdan cases. Berdan cases can be reloaded easily if you have the right primers. The main problem remains the removal of the fired primers, but it also works.

As for barrel corrosion, at last only the mercuric primers were responsible for this, but initially the first cordite formulation was the main cause of barrel damage. Only after the nitroglycerin content was reduced in favor of nitrocellulose, the problem was solved. Cordite was lastly a double base powder, but with a much higher nitroglycerin content than our current double base powders.

 

[ZG47]

The issue was not the cordite . It was mercury fulminate in the old primers which damaged the barrels .

The mercury fulminate primers were reportedly okay with blackpowder cartridges because the mercury was absorbed by the black powder residue. Cordite was found to cause excessive heat erosion in small arm barrels and was replaced—for small arm usage—with Cordite M.D. the suffix ‘MD’ standing for Modified Cordite.
Acetone was the solvent used in Cordite and during WW1 a modified composition using a mixture of ether and alcohol solvents was used. That composition ‘Cordite R.D.B.’ was never used in small arms.
N.B. The aforementioned information on Cordite was obtained from The Textbook of Small Arms 1929, p. 217.

 

[grand veneur]

Apart from all that, it is very difficult to load cartridges with cordite and almost impossible to reload it with cordite. Bottle-necked cartridges would have to be finally shaped after the load was inside. With cylindrical cartridge cases it is a little easier.