J W Tolley Double Rifle

[Furharvester]

I have recently inherited a J W Tolley double rifle. I have checked the gun all over and done a ton of research on the internet and found very little information. Any information would be greatly appreciated. I’m not even truthfully sure what ammunition it shoots. I have a 450 nitro express round and it seems to be about a quarter inch too long to fit in the chamber. Thanks in advance for any information.

 

[Woodcarver]

Most likely a 450 3" BPE if the 450NE is a 1/4" too long. Odds are one of the resident experts will be along shortly with more information about it. Nice looking old underlever.

 

[Tokoloshe Safaris]

Until you make a chamber cast and slug the barrel you are just guessing.

 

[Kevin Peacocke]

The lined are very pleasing, they cared greatly about such things in the day.

 

[Furharvester]

Until you make a chamber cast and slug the barrel you are just guessing.

I figured that’s ultimately what I would have to do but until I can do that I figured maybe someone in here might know a few things about the old rifle.

 

[Furharvester]

Most likely a 450 3" BPE if the 450NE is a 1/4" too long. Odds are one of the resident experts will be along shortly with more information about it. Nice looking old underlever.

After the research I’ve done and seeing how the 450 NE fits I was also thinking maybe a 450 BPE. Thank you for your information, it’s greatly appreciated.

 

[Hunter4752001]

The markings give the address as St Marys Square Birmingham. Another marking gives the charge as 4 Drams.
An article I've read states that the firm J & W Tolley Ltd started in 1858 at 22 St Marys Row Birmingham. I don't know if St Marys Row & Square are the same address. In the early 1870s they moved to 19 Loveday St. Together with the charge being listed as 4 Drams shows this to be a black powder rifle.

 

[Furharvester]

Thank you all for your help

 

[Sarg]

Nice old Black Powder Tolley you have there, if it is a straight cased .45 that takes 4 Drams it should be the .450 BPE (.450 Black Powder Express) as that is the load it takes, the info should really be on the barrel flats, like 450EX, the one photo we don't seem to have ?

I have a Tolley Double myself, it has the famous "Tolley Giant Grip" top fastener, I see yours has a normal Dolls Head but the forend latch is the slide button same as mine !

If the bores are good it will be a fun Boar & Deer rifle .

I had a thought if you tried a loaded .450NE 3 1/4in with the longer 480gr slug it might not chamber as the 450BPE used a 270gr or there abouts ?

 

[Red Leg]

It is a BP proofed rifle and it could well be a 450 BPE. However, there were several other similar loads during the period this rifle was built. At minimum, slug the barrel and cast the chamber before playing with actual loads. Even if it is marked as a 450 EX, someone may have messed with the chamber at some point. I once purchased a beautiful drilling with a 7x57R rifle barrel. With the the first round down range, a straight wall, fire formed case emerged. The throat of the elongated chamber was thin as tissue paper.

If you are serious about shooting it and are in the States, I would urge you to ship it off to JJ Perodeau https://jjperodeau.com/. He could tell you exactly what you have and whether and with what it would be safe to shoot.

As @Sarg notes the barrel flat usually has the most critical information.

 

[Furharvester]

There is information on the barrels themselves but absolutely nothing on the flats which is why I didn’t add a picture but here is a picture of the barrel flats

 

[Furharvester]

This is a better picture

 

[Furharvester]

This is a picture of Kynoch 450 Nitro cartridge in the bore

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

@AZDAVE might have some insight on this?

 

[Aaron N]

Would the barrels have come from Alexander Henry?

 

[Sarg]

That is a bit unusual on the barrel flats I must say !

Well it seems the barrels are steel so that's good & have Henry rifling, as I remember 52 Bore (bore diameter not groove) is around .450 caliber, so adds up.

As mentioned a chamber cast is always a good idea, as who knows who has been tinkering with it over more than 100yrs, the cleaned or polished flats are a strange sign of this ?

As I said before that longer 480gr slug in the 450NE bullet could be engaging the rifling where the much shorter 270-350gr lead bullet would normally fit ?

 

[Aaron N]

That is a bit unusual on the barrel flats I must say !

Well it seems the barrels are steel so that's good & have Henry rifling

Ahhhhhhh that’s what it meant!

 

[Sarg]

So I'm just trying to relay the ribs on my Cape Gun & notice it has no info on the flats either but just ahead on the barrels like your Tolley @Furharvester !

This is marked 52 also & the rifle barrel is .577/450 (was meant to be 450 No2 Musket) & 16bore (was meant to be 12ga lol) I got it cheap but both calibers were wrong & the ribs were both lifting !

 

[flatwater bill]

I like these old Lever Over Guard, external hammer black powder guns. Like the doll's head too. The charge is 4 drams or essentially 110 grains, whereas most of the 450 exp listed in the literature are the stouter 120 FFFg load. Still, there were numerous 450's and numerous loadings. Happily, you didn't fire a cordite load in this old gun, or we might not be having this conversation. Congrats on real treasure.......FWB

 

[Furharvester]

So I'm just trying to relay the ribs on my Cape Gun & notice it has no info on the flats either but just ahead on the barrels like your Tolley @Furharvester !

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This is marked 52 also & the rifle barrel is .577/450 (was meant to be 450 No2 Musket) & 16bore (was meant to be 12ga lol) I got it cheap but both calibers were wrong & the ribs were both lifting !

The marks are very similar to the marks on my rifle