Impact energy VS Penetration

[norfolk shooter]

Guys there is no sexual connotation to my question. But after handling some of the VC doubles it got me thinking about 500 or even a 577NE. However I have seen in my research that the 416 Rigby (currant double rifle (for those that say you should have a rimed case go screw yourself)) will out penetrate any of the 500's. But saying that the 500's hit with a hell of a lot more energy. I have seen that the 416 bullets have a better SD but how much difference does it make.
Now I can shoot the 416 well and feel I'd be able to shoot the 500's well too. so it boils down to impact energy or penetration. What will be more effective for a nice quick death??

Thanks as always Norfolk Shooter out.

 

[KMG Hunting Safaris]

@norfolk shooter Mani, it was a pleasure to meet you at the AH dinner. I thoroughly enjoyed the short time speaking with you. If you are handling the .416Rigby fine, I have no doubt that you will handle the .500NE . I own both. The report is much slower than the .416 Rigby. The .577 is a different beast.
The .416 Rigby is well known to be one of the top penetrators in the world, and I speak under correction, only to be outdone by the .460 Wby.
The question however would need to be asked what the application would be for the rifle. As an out and out stopper, there is no doubt that the .500NE has a lot more knock down power than the .416. I always refer to , and dare I say it, the charge stopping of Mark Sullivan. You can see on numerous occasions where he has missed the trip switch on a charging animal, where one can clearly see the animal stumbling about after the shot, as if it had ran into a brick wall. This gives him the time to let the second barrel fly. This always reminds me of the importance of using a big stopper.
If it was purely for hunting or in the middle and have a bit of both, I would be tempted to say that I would go with the .416Rigby. It will offer you more versatility.
Unless you are itching for the .50, then I would say just do it. I do love my .500NE. I have a photo somewhere where I'm lying in bed with my Double Rifle on Valentines day. Barrels were lying on my wife's pillow. She was not impressed....

 

[norfolk shooter]

@norfolk shooter Mani, it was a pleasure to meet you at the AH dinner. I thoroughly enjoyed the short time speaking with you. If you are handling the .416Rigby fine, I have no doubt that you will handle the .500NE . I own both. The report is much slower than the .416 Rigby. The .577 is a different beast.
The .416 Rigby is well known to be one of the top penetrators in the world, and I speak under correction, only to be outdone by the .460 Wby.
The question however would need to be asked what the application would be for the rifle. As an out and out stopper, there is no doubt that the .500NE has a lot more knock down power than the .416. I always refer to , and dare I say it, the charge stopping of Mark Sullivan. You can see on numerous occasions where he has missed the trip switch on a charging animal, where one can clearly see the animal stumbling about after the shot, as if it had ran into a brick wall. This gives him the time to let the second barrel fly. This always reminds me of the importance of using a big stopper.
If it was purely for hunting or in the middle and have a bit of both, I would be tempted to say that I would go with the .416Rigby. It will offer you more versatility.
Unless you are itching for the .50, then I would say just do it. I do love my .500NE. I have a photo somewhere where I'm lying in bed with my Double Rifle on Valentines day. Barrels were lying on my wife's pillow. She was not impressed....

Bru it was super meeting you too.
I would say its more for a bit of both. I suppose if a buff is running right at me I can go for a brain shot with a solid and that should put him in his place. Dont worry I lay on the sofa cuddling my double watching kak on the telly most evenings.
So I guess the 500NE is the better killer then? Or will the 416 stop a charge as long as I put the round in the right place?

 

[Ridgewalker]

Analogy would be getting hit by a boulder vs a Pellet! The boulder doesn’t really penetrate so much as shocks you. The pellet will penetrate, but has very little shock (stopping) power. Yes I’m a simple kind of guy.

 

[KMG Hunting Safaris]

Bru it was super meeting you too.
I would say its more for a bit of both. I suppose if a buff is running right at me I can go for a brain shot with a solid and that should put him in his place. Dont worry I lay on the sofa cuddling my double watching kak on the telly most evenings.
So I guess the 500NE is the better killer then? Or will the 416 stop a charge as long as I put the round in the right place?

If you put the 416 into the brain, it will stop the charge no doubt. Its when you miss the brain where the the difference between the two calibers will be noticed...

 

[BenKK]

Having defended myself and others from buffalo with both a bolt-action .416 Rigby and a double .500NE, I can say that they are both fine choices. Both have tremendous impact on buffalo but the .500NE typically has a little more.

 

[norfolk shooter]

Having defended myself and others from buffalo with both a bolt-action .416 Rigby and a double .500NE, I can say that they are both fine choices. Both have tremendous impact on buffalo but the .500NE typically has a little more.

Would you say the 500 has enough of an edge to sell a 416 get all the paperwork sorted and spend an extra £10-15k?? Ok if I go k gun it'll only be another 4-5k

 

[norfolk shooter]

If you put the 416 into the brain, it will stop the charge no doubt. Its when you miss the brain where the the difference between the two calibers will be noticed...

I wonder what happens if you put a 416 on the tip of his nose? Not to see if he can balance it

 

[BenKK]

Would you say the 500 has enough of an edge to sell a 416 get all the paperwork sorted and spend an extra £10-15k?? Ok if I go k gun it'll only be another 4-5k

Hell, no! Not as a client! Absolutely not worth it unless you absolutely want to for no other reason than it’s your passion and you want to try something else.

 

[norfolk shooter]

Hell, no! Not as a client! Absolutely not worth it unless you absolutely want to for no other reason than it’s your passion and you want to try something else.

Thanks buddy. ALL the animals I have taken have been one shot kills. Nice and clean and I want to keep that record. But I see your point. If it's only a marginal advantage it's not worth it especially the ball ache we have in the UK re firearms paperwork

 

[Shootist43]

Norfolk Shooter, an interesting question, I'm enjoying the answers, especially so because the largest caliber I own is a 416 Rigby.

 

[KMG Hunting Safaris]

Would you say the 500 has enough of an edge to sell a 416 get all the paperwork sorted and spend an extra £10-15k?? Ok if I go k gun it'll only be another 4-5k

Sorry for the delay in reply, just landed in London on my way back to RSA. As an out and out stopper, no doubt the 500 trumps it, but by reading your comments, this is not what you need. My advise would be to stick with the 416 Rigby. Its a wonderful cartridge that will take care of any animal on this earth.

 

[Forrest Halley]

@norfolk shooter Look at "1tufgun" on YouTube. He does a lot of NE testing for penetration and expansion. It's fun to watch him ride the recoil of some of those guns.
Both the .416 and .500 penetrated 30" of plywood. I'd keep the .416 just to thumb my nose at the rimmed cartridge crowd...but that's just me...

 

[Ray B]

There are two aspects of terminal performance, the shape & area of the bullet and the force pushing the bullet. A flat surface encounters more resistance than a pointed surface and a larger surface area has to move more stuff out of the way. A small pointed surface penetrates better than a large flat surface. the force that is pushing the bullet is equivalent to its momentum since the momentum spent by the bullet will equal the movement transferred to the parts of the animal that the bullet moved. Sectional Density is commonly used as a measure of penetration but what it is saying is that penetration of two bullets of equal momentum will favor the smaller diameter. These aspects relate to bullet potential. How it affects the animal is a function of how that transfer is managed. the shooter will choose a bullet that spends it momentum so as to disrupt the most important portions of the animal.

 

[IvW]

Shot placement and penetration will always beat "impact-energy".....and of course a bigger bullet will be better than a smaller one for stopping purposes. 500 should be the practical limit for a normal hunter 577 recoils too much the rifle is too heavy and it lacks penetration compared to either 500 or 416...

And yes rimmed cartridges are better in doubles.....get a 500/416 NE if it has to be a 416....

 

[CTDolan]

 

[Wheels]

Would you say the 500 has enough of an edge to sell a 416 get all the paperwork sorted and spend an extra £10-15k?? Ok if I go k gun it'll only be another 4-5k

Really enjoyed visiting with you at DSC M. Look forward to your return next year to these ungrateful colonies.

If you are a gun man and want a 500, go get one.

If you like to hunt, your 416 will do any job you want in Africa and you will have extra funds to spend on trophy fees!

Personally I prefer hunting. My next two dg hunts are booked using camp rifles.(actually personal rifles of the PH) One a CZ550, the other a M70. I have or have had both models and am comfortable with them. It gets tiresome messing with paperwork for firearms. Also a pain checking luggage. With laundry done daily, I try to go with just a carry on. KISS applies to me. If luggage doesn't make it, big deal. I have gone to Africa probably 10 times for up to a month with only a carry on. Everything fits in my backpack.

All the best on your decision. If you get the 500, you have to provide pics!

 

[Forrest Halley]

There are two aspects of terminal performance, the shape & area of the bullet and the force pushing the bullet. A flat surface encounters more resistance than a pointed surface and a larger surface area has to move more stuff out of the way. A small pointed surface penetrates better than a large flat surface. the force that is pushing the bullet is equivalent to its momentum since the momentum spent by the bullet will equal the movement transferred to the parts of the animal that the bullet moved. Sectional Density is commonly used as a measure of penetration but what it is saying is that penetration of two bullets of equal momentum will favor the smaller diameter. These aspects relate to bullet potential. How it affects the animal is a function of how that transfer is managed. the shooter will choose a bullet that spends it momentum so as to disrupt the most important portions of the animal.

Where to begin?
Sectional density is used as a reference of penetration potential. Penetration is best quantified with a probe and tape measure.
Small pointed surfaces penetrate better than large flat surfaces? This has not proven true in straight line penetration testing in real world tests and game animal recoveries. In fact it would appear that the meplat sacrificed is only sufficient to aid in feeding and possibly to bolster ballistic coefficient to co-witness with a soft point of similar weight. If we want to test tumbling penetration and wound channels it would be somewhat difficult as they are so carried and unpredictable.
Momentum and energy are not equal equations as velocity is squared in the latter. Your assumption of two bullets of equal sectional density favoring the smaller is false as if the sectional density and momentum were identical, they should penetrate similarly in the test medium. What BC is to air resistance and drag....SD is to penetration and momentum conservation...
The shooter will chose his bullet based on desired effect upon impacting the target. Shot placement, angle and energy at impact will decide the disruption of tissues, organs, and systems.

 

[375 Ruger Fan]

Norfolk Shooter, an interesting question, I'm enjoying the answers, especially so because the largest caliber I own is a 416 Rigby.

Art, isn't your 404 Jeffery larger than your 416?

 

[Ray B]

Sometimes people are unable to read and understand what was written without filtering it through there own prejudices.