Identifying Mauser Model A vs B vs...?

WebleyGreene455

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Good evening y'all.

I'm looking at a trio of Mauser rifles in the hopes of getting one and using it alongside my .303 BSA sporter in the future.

Rifle #1 is advertised as a circa 1928 sporter. 8mm Mauser, 22" half-octagonal ribbed barrel, pear-shaped bolt handle, has a dovetailed claw mount on the receiver ring and a saddle one at the back of the receiver. Stock has a keyed foreend, schnable, no checkering, cheekpiece, rounded pistol grip.

Rifle #2 is listed as an Oberndorf Model A. 9.3x57mm, approx 23" round barrel, Oberndorf bolt handle, has a side-rail mount fitted to the receiver. Double set triggers, lever-opening floorplate. Stock has checkering at the grip, a capped pistol grip, cheekpiece, and a less-pronounced schnable versus rifle #1.

Rifle #3 is listed as a Mauser Type B. 8mm Mauser, 23.5"-ish barrel, butterknife bolt handle, side rail mount. Double set triggers (different style from rifle #2), military-style floorplate. Stock has checkering at the grip and forearm, capped pistol grip, cheekpiece, and a more pronounced schnable. It also has a muzzle device of some kind fitted to the barrel, a compensator or muzzle brake I expect.

According to an article I found in SA Jagter Hunter, the serial # range for rifle #2 and #3 puts them in the 1910-1914 range (referencing John Speed's guideline).

So how do I tell if it really is a Mauser Model A (the foreign-export ones modeled after the British-styled Mausers) or the Model B (the ones intended for domestic consumption) if they don't quite fit into the assorted descriptions of the Model A and Model B? Does it actually matter, anyway?

I'm after a "poor man's Rigby" (or an American's), so to speak; a German-made Mauser that looks British, was intended for export, but wasn't made by Rigby. Any of the three rifles here mentioned would be rechambered/bored to 9.3x62mm and have a Rigby aperture sight fitted. Rifle #1 would need a fair bit extra work as it's missing the front sight, would need scope mounts fitted, and unfortunately would require a rework of the stock since it appears to fit the rifle quite poorly now. That just mounts in price and overshadows the handsomeness of the ribbed half-octagonal barrel. Rifle #2 would just need a hood fitted for the front sight and it'd be good to go. Rifle #3 would need a hood fitted and I'm wary about that compensator or whatever it is, but I also like the checkering on it.

As far as prices go, rifle #1 is cheapest, followed by #3, and #2; all are under $2,000USD. What should I do? Going with the as-listed Model A (#2) is what I'm leaning towards since while it's the most expensive, it also seems to be the closest to what I'm after (and requires the minimum of alteration).

~~W.G.455
 
Looking at my Mauser book from Ludwig Olson, the descriptions laid out dont really match what he shows in his book.
I am no Mauser expert but Olson is and I would question the A and B thing in these rifles. If you can post some pics here that would also help.
 
Rifle #2 (allegedly Model A):
1636946054114.png

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1636946145629.png


Rifle #3 (allegedly Model B):
1636946210932.png
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1636946302392.png
1636946327540.png


@sestoppelman I'm getting some of the info on what constituted a Model A vs Model B from here: http://sportsmansvintagepress.com/read-free/mauser-rifles-pistols-table-of-contents/mauser-sporter/ (excerpted from W.H.B. Smith's book on Mauser rifles & pistols). Neither rifle 100% matches what Smith says either, but then again, the excerpt does say that stocks and features could vary considerably and from what I've seen in online listings and galleries over the years, that's understating it.
 

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Agree, things dont always follow the books. For my money it would be easy, neither of those shown. I hate side mounts, butterknife bolt handles and muzzle devices, looks like a Cutts compensator.
Rifle 1 sounds like my kind of rifle.
Obviously that should have ZERO bearing on your choice.
 
I did never like a dovetailed claw mount on the receiver ring, as you said about the Nr 1 rifle you describe.
By the way, the Official German proof house today don´t aproves those dovetailed front ring receivers. They don´t even makes a test on them. They discard those receivers.
 
Hi WG455,

The Nr 2 rifle IS a model B. 100% sure. And the side rail scope mount seems to be well put together.
The Nr 3 IS NOT a Mauser Original Sporting rifle. 100% sure.
Good morning Clodo.

Can I ask why you're sure #3 isn't an original sporter? I don't doubt you, just want to know for future reference.

Also here're photos of Rifle #1:
1636981310109.png
1636981344364.png

1636981412665.png
1636981448368.png

1636981524326.png
1636981588383.png

1636981685114.png
1636981828847.png



What do you think about #1 now you see it, @sestoppelman ?

~~W.G.455
 
Good morning Clodo.

Can I ask why you're sure #3 isn't an original sporter? I don't doubt you, just want to know for future reference.

Also here're photos of Rifle #1:
View attachment 436478View attachment 436479
View attachment 436480View attachment 436481
View attachment 436482View attachment 436488
View attachment 436499View attachment 436500


What do you think about #1 now you see it, @sestoppelman ?

~~W.G.455
Almost certainly a pre-WWI rifle. Rarely was the forearm key used between the wars. The stock is either a replacement or was so badly treated and refinished that the checkering was taken off the grip (may or may not have been present originally on the fore stock).

Trying to scope claws on a bolt action is difficult. Anything larger than a straight tube requires a custom built front ring. They do not work particularly well on the new alloy tubes. Depending on the base placement, some rail equipped scopes will work, but again your gunsmith will need to be able to build custom claws to fit the rail.

The #2 rifle is built like a Model B. Of course Mauser built Model B's, but a number of German gunmakers built Mauser sporting rifles to the exact same pattern using the same components. To further add confusion, they rarely marked their rifles - what are called guild guns. Without being able to see detailed proof marks (which might or might not tell us anything) it is best to take these rifles on a case by case basis and let the rifle speak for itself. From what I can tell from the photos, this looks like a pretty clean original rifle - except, of course, for the side mount. I can't tell a lot from the photos, but I believe this particular one is likely late 1930's German.

I would agree that the third rifle is a guild gun rather than an Oberndorf produced Model B. The dimensions are just a bit off. Model B's will occasionally have a butter knife bolt handle, but I have never seen an original with the ribbed variety. Mauser would not have checkered the fore stock in that location (though in fairness, that could have been added later). Obviously, the abomination on the muzzle was added post war.

Without being able to tell anything about the bores, of the three, I like No. 1.
 
Good morning Clodo.

Can I ask why you're sure #3 isn't an original sporter? I don't doubt you, just want to know for future reference.

Also here're photos of Rifle #1:
View attachment 436478View attachment 436479
View attachment 436480View attachment 436481
View attachment 436482View attachment 436488
View attachment 436499View attachment 436500


What do you think about #1 now you see it, @sestoppelman ?

~~W.G.455
This proof mark is not the in house Mauser proof so it was most likely made by a German Smith using Mauser actions. These are what we call Suhl Mausers. Ice rifle nonetheless and one that you can rechamber without ruining a collector.
 
Rifle #2 (allegedly Model A):
View attachment 436398
View attachment 436399
View attachment 436400
View attachment 436401
View attachment 436402

Rifle #3 (allegedly Model B):
View attachment 436403View attachment 436404
View attachment 436405View attachment 436406

@sestoppelman I'm getting some of the info on what constituted a Model A vs Model B from here: http://sportsmansvintagepress.com/read-free/mauser-rifles-pistols-table-of-contents/mauser-sporter/ (excerpted from W.H.B. Smith's book on Mauser rifles & pistols). Neither rifle 100% matches what Smith says either, but then again, the excerpt does say that stocks and features could vary considerably and from what I've seen in online listings and galleries over the years, that's understating it.
Rifle #2 is a type B - this is not an English stock. No buffalo horn front tip and there is too much drop on the heel. I would also think that it’s 9.3x62.
 
Hi y'all.

Okay so we'll omit Rifle #3 from the lineup. Aside from that wretched-looking compensator or whatever, I'm inclined to agree it's a Guild gun and I don't much care for the butterknife bolt handle anyway, at least not that particular one. So we're left with #1 and #2.

#1 is actually the rifle I've been looking at for quite a while now. Least expensive to start with but needs the most work. I'll take suggestions for someone who can do the work I want for it.

#2 is a Model B, I agree with y'all. Not the first time that seller's made a mistake, but nothing heartbreaking. It's still an appealing rifle to me (no scope rings to worry about, already has double triggers and a lever floorplate) and I don't mind a German-style German rifle as a counterpart to my English-style English one; they're about the same in terms of style, fit, and finish, I'd say.

@John Telford While the listing says it's 9.3x57, the rifle itself is only marked 9.3 (as the Germans seemed wont to do). That said, the excerpt from Smith I referenced earlier does say the 9.3x62 was a standard calibre for the Model B (and A), so I can check with the seller to make sure. If it turns out to be a x62 after all, I've got no problem with it joining my .303.

@degoins I did have a look at your 9x57. Thanks for suggesting it but I'm looking for a rifle with a scope mount and one in 9.3x62 or that I can convert without stressing over it.

~~W.G.455
 
Hi WG455,

The Nr 3 rifle is not, clearly, an original sporting Mauser. The reasons are:
- The magazine-trigger guard-double triggers are not of an Original sporting Mauser.
- Neither the stock configuration.
- Neither the barrel profile, nor the real sight.

About the Nr 1 rifle. It is NOT an Original sporting Mauser, for sure! May be a pre WWI by an independent rifle maker. The dovetailed front scope mount is dangerously made!!! Very deep dovetail cut and in a wrong place!!!
When Mauser made this type of base, they used a special action with small thread barrel. That way, the front bridge had more material to cut a dovetail. And Mauser cut a very shallow dovetail.
Anyway, Mauser made square bridges in the front bridge of the actions of their sporting rifles, from the mid thirties until the end, 1945, mainly to put more material to cut dovetails without compromise the strenght in that place.
 
Hi WG455,

I also think the Nr.2 rifle could be a 9,3x62 instead 9,3x57. It has some features, like the shape of the magazine floor plate and the deep of the rifle stock at the magazine place. The ORIGINAL Sporting Mauser rifles in 9,3x62 had a slightly deeper and wider magazines than the 8x57 or 30-06 ORIGINAL ones. I like this rifle!
 
Morning @Clodo Ferreira . Yes, I see what you mean about #3. Something about it seemed off to me, now I think about it, and not just the muzzle device.

If #1's dovetail is truly dangerous and a bad idea, then I reckon I oughta strike it from the lineup too. A pity, since I think it would've made a good project gun otherwise (especially at its price point), but I'd rather be safe than sorry. Without meaning to impugn your knowledge and input, does anyone else concur with the dovetail issue?

Rifle #2 does seem to be the best of the three. The serial number range is in the 70XXX range, which according to one of the sources I found is roughly dated to 1910-1914 production, but with WWI happening, it wasn't necessarily built until afterward. I also agree with Red Leg that the scope mount was added later, probably in the 1930s or so, but that leads me to a big question (for me, at least):

Would this be a rifle you'd see in the 1910s-1920s, including the scope mount, in the hands of a hunter/explorer/obtainer of rare antiquities on the African continent?

~~W.G.455
 
Hi WG,

What I said "...the Official German proof house today don´t aproves those dovetailed front ring receivers. They don´t even make a test on them. They discard those receivers.", is true. Easy to check.
Good luck!

CF
 
Rifles #1,2 are both nice and although not Orbendorf Mausers they are as you say a German gun made in Germany. I wouldn’t hesitate to add them to the gun rack of the price is reasonable. But hey that’s just my biased opinion!
Problem is once you start on these German guns….
 

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