ID this old gun

[nztimb]

A friend was in today with this old smooth bore pistol. I Am sure the lock plate is not original and the recess has been hacked deeper going by the rough surface. Can anyone identify the gun from the few marks and engravings we can find on it. He would like to kake it a working pistol again but needs to replace broken and missing parts so the first step is identity of gun and or maker. I will make a new stock for it when he has all the parts needed and can fit generic parts is necesary but it would be nice for him to know what we have to start with.

 

[ZG47]

Your first image appears to be upside down i.e., the symbol on the ‘bottom’ of each mark, as shown, seems to be a crown. The marks are similar but cruder than the images of British Military view and proof marks circa 1830, as shown in Lee Kennett’s article in Gun Digest 30th Anniversary 1976 Ed.

A History of Proof Marks: Military Proof Marks.

This article is the 9th instalment of a series which began in the 22nd edition of Gun Digest.

Could this pistol have been a percussion conversion?

 

[CoElkHunter]

Bob @Bob Nelson 35Whelen might know something about it? I believe he used something similar when he was a pirate back in the day.

 

[93marlin]

Your first image appears to be upside down i.e., the symbol on the ‘bottom’ of each mark, as shown, seems to be a crown. The marks are similar but cruder than the images of British Military view and proof marks circa 1830, as shown in Lee Kennett’s article in Gun Digest 30th Anniversary 1976 Ed.

A History of Proof Marks: Military Proof Marks.

This article is the 9th instalment of a series which began in the 22nd edition of Gun Digest.

Could this pistol have been a percussion conversion?

I'm not sure I would have the intestinal fortitude to actually try and fire it!
For me, a wallhanger.

 

[Ridge Runner]

A friend was in today with this old smooth bore pistol. I Am sure the lock plate is not original and the recess has been hacked deeper going by the rough surface. Can anyone identify the gun from the few marks and engravings we can find on it. He would like to kake it a working pistol again but needs to replace broken and missing parts so the first step is identity of gun and or maker. I will make a new stock for it when he has all the parts needed and can fit generic parts is necesary but it would be nice for him to know what we have to start with.
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I will need to research the markings to determine the origins of this pistol.

But I can say it is designed as a percussion pistol and is not a conversion from flint to percussion.

Do you know the bore size?

Can you post more pictures of the muzzle, particularly what is attached at the muzzle?

The stock is similar to that of a (US) Colonial or Kentucky pistol.

The nipple is odd as it is made for number 10 or 11 caps rather than the musket cap. Is the nipple removable or fixed?

Bad news is even though this looks to be a historical relic, which I hope it is for the owner, but sadly it very well maybe a very badly abused, cared for, cheap foreign replica.

For a greater and more accurate amount of information you could reach out to the Bevel Brothers via The National Muzzle Loading Rifle Association, Friendship, Indiana.

Is the iron blued or browned?
If blued most likely, but not necessarily, good indicator of a modern replica.

 

[nztimb]

I will need to research the markings to determine the origins of this pistol.

But I can say it is designed as a percussion pistol and is not a conversion from flint to percussion.

Do you know the bore size?

Can you post more pictures of the muzzle, particularly what is attached at the muzzle?

The stock is similar to that of a (US) Colonial or Kentucky pistol.

The nipple is odd as it is made for number 10 or 11 caps rather than the musket cap. Is the nipple removable or fixed?

Bad news is even though this looks to be a historical relic, which I hope it is for the owner, but sadly it very well maybe a very badly abused, cared for, cheap foreign replica.

For a greater and more accurate amount of information you could reach out to the Bevel Brothers via The National Muzzle Loading Rifle Association, Friendship, Indiana.

Is the iron blued or browned?
If blued most likely, but not necessarily, good indicator of a modern replica.

The pistol is back with the owner so will ask for the bore size and the better pick of the muzzle attachment that I took to be for a ramrod capture.
The barrel is damascus

 

[Ridgewalker]

Used by Johnny Depp in “Pirates of the Caribbean”…just kidding!

 

[Ridge Runner]

The pistol is back with the owner so will ask for the bore size and the better pick of the muzzle attachment that I took to be for a ramrod capture.
The barrel is damascus

If you would please, another thing that will also help, remove and attach photos of both sides of the lock, especially if there are any markings on the lock.

Other questions:

Damascus Barrel: what is the thickness of the barrel at the muzzle?

Does the metal ring when struck with a piece of metal? Kinda like a bell or a clang kinda like two hammer faces colliding.

Is the barrel reactive to a magnet/ does a magnet stick to the metal___ solid or slide when it/if it sticks to the metal?

Using a nipple pick (or small safety pin) check the nipple hole to see if the nipple hole is drilled through to the barrel.

If the hole goes all the way through Maybe good, Maybe bad. Previous and more test/ checks are needed.

If the hole does not go through to the barrel bad. This pistol is a Wall Hanger Only......NOT TO BE USED!!

Does the current or original stock have a ramrod hole?

If Yes then whatever is at the end of the muzzle is not for a ramrod.

If No then the stock was not meant to hold/carry a ramrod.

Does the metal grip cap have a hole in the center of it?

Curious...the odd metal muzzle piece, without seeing more photos, could be used as an indicator that the weapon is loaded or unloaded. Indicating this maybe a dueling pistol or a target pistol.

 

[nztimb]

If you would please, another thing that will also help, remove and attach photos of both sides of the lock, especially if there are any markings on the lock.

Other questions:

Damascus Barrel: what is the thickness of the barrel at the muzzle?

Does the metal ring when struck with a piece of metal? Kinda like a bell or a clang kinda like two hammer faces colliding.

Is the barrel reactive to a magnet/ does a magnet stick to the metal___ solid or slide when it/if it sticks to the metal?

Using a nipple pick (or small safety pin) check the nipple hole to see if the nipple hole is drilled through to the barrel.

If the hole goes all the way through Maybe good, Maybe bad. Previous and more test/ checks are needed.

If the hole does not go through to the barrel bad. This pistol is a Wall Hanger Only......NOT TO BE USED!!

Does the current or original stock have a ramrod hole?

If Yes then whatever is at the end of the muzzle is not for a ramrod.

If No then the stock was not meant to hold/carry a ramrod.

Does the metal grip cap have a hole in the center of it?

Curious...the odd metal muzzle piece, without seeing more photos, could be used as an indicator that the weapon is loaded or unloaded. Indicating this maybe a dueling pistol or a target pistol.

I have sent a link to this thread to my friend and will get him to relate the required data to me to pass on. Hope to be talking to him tonight.

 

[nztimb]

If you would please, another thing that will also help, remove and attach photos of both sides of the lock, especially if there are any markings on the lock.

Other questions:

Damascus Barrel: what is the thickness of the barrel at the muzzle?

Does the metal ring when struck with a piece of metal? Kinda like a bell or a clang kinda like two hammer faces colliding.

Is the barrel reactive to a magnet/ does a magnet stick to the metal___ solid or slide when it/if it sticks to the metal?

Using a nipple pick (or small safety pin) check the nipple hole to see if the nipple hole is drilled through to the barrel.

If the hole goes all the way through Maybe good, Maybe bad. Previous and more test/ checks are needed.

If the hole does not go through to the barrel bad. This pistol is a Wall Hanger Only......NOT TO BE USED!!

Does the current or original stock have a ramrod hole?

If Yes then whatever is at the end of the muzzle is not for a ramrod.

If No then the stock was not meant to hold/carry a ramrod.

Does the metal grip cap have a hole in the center of it?

Curious...the odd metal muzzle piece, without seeing more photos, could be used as an indicator that the weapon is loaded or unloaded. Indicating this maybe a dueling pistol or a target pistol.

Have been in touch with Alex and he has passed on that ...
Definitely steel as it tings when hit. And sticks to magnet too. Stuck pin down the nipple and goes all the way through.
And would say it is browned not blue

 

[rdog]

Bob @Bob Nelson 35Whelen might know something about it? I believe he used something similar when he was a pirate back in the day.

Bob the pirate i would like to see that, the ship would be armed with 35 W guns, pillaging the enemy only armed with 243s

 

[Ridge Runner]

Have been in touch with Alex and he has passed on that ...
Definitely steel as it tings when hit. And sticks to magnet too. Stuck pin down the nipple and goes all the way through.
And would say it is browned not blue



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WOW!...NICE!...to bad not in much better shape, even worse the NMLRA Spring National Shooting Championships was last week. A lot of information could have been found and shared. However, the Fall Championship Matches are not far away September 10-18, 2022. Both events are held at the NMLRA headquarters in Friendship, Indiana. These events bring together some-a lot- of the most knowledgeable people in muzzleloading.

I am recommending you contact the Bevel Brothers via the National Muzzle Loading Rifle Association and sending all of these photos and information you can on this firearm to them for their opinion and further information.

I stand corrected as the nipple does appear it might have been made for musket caps.

The channel and hole in the stock is where the ramrod would be placed. The hole between the ramrod channel and barrel bed is for mounting a ramrod thimble. It could be this odd piece at the muzzle would be held in place under the barrel by the ramrod. This also leads me to believe the barrel may have been longer at one time.

Withe better photos (IMO) still leads me to believe the odd piece at the muzzle is used for accurate alignment of the ball suggesting once again a target or dueling pistol or maybe both.

The lock:
Using a spring vise and being extremely careful, because the spring maybe brittle, with ease collapse the spring, Cocking the hammer periodically, till the hammer catch fits into the hook of the spring. The hammer is now functional.

Curious:

Can you post some pics of the trigger in the stock and separate from the stock?

The picture of the grip cap in your OP looks to have a piece of metal attached by a screw, while in other pics this piece in not shown.

By enlarging the photos and not seeing this piece in other photos, I can only speculate the metal piece having a "U" shape is a concealed decapper. Which would further indicate the pistol is more likely a target pistol.

The muzzle and barrel length puzzle me a bit. The barrel length doesn't look right for target nor dueling pistol.

What is the length of the barrel? Measuring the length using a dowel rod down the barrel or by measuring from the front of the flash shield (the metal piece in front of the nipple to the muzzle? I could be wrong, but the barrel looks to be short for either target or dueling pistol, especially for a smooth bore. I'm guessing an 8 to 10 inch barrel.

Next items:

Can you or has either you or your friend ran a flexible neck bore light down the barrel to inspect it? Looking for any type of fractures/cracks, excessive and extreme pitting (some light pitting is expected). I'm more concerned about safety and the next stages leading up to test firing and future shooting.

Another reason I am referring to get more information on this pistol from the go to guys, the Bevel Brothers compared to them and their combined vast knowledge of muzzleloading firearms and experiences, I'm a novice muzzleloader/black powder fanatic.

Once the lock spring is attached to the lock, work the lock. Looking for freedom of movement.
NOTE: The sear release should be located as part of the trigger. To confirm this I need to see photos of the trigger and how it is most likely pinned into the stock and the trigger's alignment to the sear. And photos of the trigger removed from the stock.

The bore size is rather odd, 67 caliber, but not surprising, as barrel wear could have increased the bore diameter and/or forging being somewhat inconsistent there by leading to ball moulds being made specifically for these odd calibers, which might be included with the purchase of the weapon.

For a target pistol this would seem to me be too big of bore. For a 67 cal. dueling pistol this would be a possibility, being a smooth bore, leaving the questionable seemingly short barrel.

I'm envious...this is looking to be a good smooth bore project. It would be a great project if the nipple could be replaceable without taking away any possible history or collector value.

As long as you are absolutely sure the barrel is not cast iron or pot metal and the fire hole goes clean through to the powder charge.

 

[nztimb]

Really appreciate the replies @Ridge Runner. I will get Alex to supply the new requested information and pass on the Bevel Brothers info to him.

 

[Red Leg]

The barrel at least was meant to be perhaps used by a mounted officer or gentleman. It is neither a target nor dueling weapon. The Ramrod pivot below the muzzle allowed the ramrod to be swiveled into the muzzle without danger of dropping it and leaving the horseman or cavalryman (or infantry officer) unable to reload. I say gentleman or officer because the gold highlights and engraving are not found on general issue handguns indicating this was a private purchase weapon.

The shape of the lock and crudeness of the hammer initially made me certain that this was a percussion conversion of an original flintlock. However, the platinum over pressure blow plug would be an unusual addition on such a conversion, and the scalloping at the nipple seems original. Also, the ramrod stirrups became common very late in the flint period and are most often found on percussion weapons.

I now tend to think some shade tree gunsmith in the mid-nineteenth century mated a very fine barrel, smaller parts, and perhaps stock with a very crude action for some reason. Another clue to this theory is the shape of the lock. The "banana" form is typically late 18th century and found on flintlocks. Percussion locks almost always have a flat base.

The lettering at the top of the barrel, were it fully readable, likely would tell us either who made it or retailed it. The proof marks, were they readable, would let us know where and about when it was made (probably answering the original flint or percussion question). The "London" engraving is not definitive because the Belgians marked many such guns in such a way. Though based on the gun's location, a British origin would be likely.

I shoot quite a few damascus barreled guns. I would not dream of ever pouring a load of powder down the muzzle of one in this condition.

 

[nztimb]

The barrel at least was meant to be perhaps used by a mounted officer or gentleman. It is neither a target nor dueling weapon. The Ramrod pivot below the muzzle allowed the ramrod to be swiveled into the muzzle without danger of dropping it and leaving the horseman or cavalryman (or infantry officer) unable to reload. I say gentleman or officer because the gold highlights and engraving are not found on general issue handguns indicating this was a private purchase weapon.

The shape of the lock and crudeness of the hammer initially made me certain that this was a percussion conversion of an original flintlock. However, the platinum over pressure blow plug would be an unusual addition on such a conversion, and the scalloping at the nipple seems original. Also, the ramrod stirrups became common very late in the flint period and are most often found on percussion weapons.

I now tend to think some shade tree gunsmith in the mid-nineteenth century mated a very fine barrel, smaller parts, and perhaps stock with a very crude action for some reason. Another clue to this theory is the shape of the lock. The "banana" form is typically late 18th century and found on flintlocks. Percussion locks almost always have a flat base.

The lettering at the top of the barrel, were it fully readable, likely would tell us either who made it or retailed it. The proof marks, were they readable, would let us know where and about when it was made (probably answering the original flint or percussion question). The "London" engraving is not definitive because the Belgians marked many such guns in such a way. Though based on the gun's location, a British origin would be likely.

I shoot quite a few damascus barreled guns. I would not dream of ever pouring a load of powder down the muzzle of one in this condition.

I felt the lock plate was a changed part from what would be original to the gun so concluded it may very well be a back country fix up of what seemed to me to have been a quality piece at date of making.

 

[rookhawk]

The barrel at least was meant to be perhaps used by a mounted officer or gentleman. It is neither a target nor dueling weapon. The Ramrod pivot below the muzzle allowed the ramrod to be swiveled into the muzzle without danger of dropping it and leaving the horseman or cavalryman (or infantry officer) unable to reload. I say gentleman or officer because the gold highlights and engraving are not found on general issue handguns indicating this was a private purchase weapon.

The shape of the lock and crudeness of the hammer initially made me certain that this was a percussion conversion of an original flintlock. However, the platinum over pressure blow plug would be an unusual addition on such a conversion, and the scalloping at the nipple seems original. Also, the ramrod stirrups became common very late in the flint period and are most often found on percussion weapons.

I now tend to think some shade tree gunsmith in the mid-nineteenth century mated a very fine barrel, smaller parts, and perhaps stock with a very crude action for some reason. Another clue to this theory is the shape of the lock. The "banana" form is typically late 18th century and found on flintlocks. Percussion locks almost always have a flat base.

The lettering at the top of the barrel, were it fully readable, likely would tell us either who made it or retailed it. The proof marks, were they readable, would let us know where and about when it was made (probably answering the original flint or percussion question). The "London" engraving is not definitive because the Belgians marked many such guns in such a way. Though based on the gun's location, a British origin would be likely.

I shoot quite a few damascus barreled guns. I would not dream of ever pouring a load of powder down the muzzle of one in this condition.

@Red Leg I too thought it was a good flintlock hastily converted to a bad percussion setup by a shadetree gunsmith. While heavily worn, the original quality was quite high but the aftermarket parts were quite low. Things aren’t quite going together.

 

[Ridge Runner]

The barrel at least was meant to be perhaps used by a mounted officer or gentleman. It is neither a target nor dueling weapon. The Ramrod pivot below the muzzle allowed the ramrod to be swiveled into the muzzle without danger of dropping it and leaving the horseman or cavalryman (or infantry officer) unable to reload. I say gentleman or officer because the gold highlights and engraving are not found on general issue handguns indicating this was a private purchase weapon.

The shape of the lock and crudeness of the hammer initially made me certain that this was a percussion conversion of an original flintlock. However, the platinum over pressure blow plug would be an unusual addition on such a conversion, and the scalloping at the nipple seems original. Also, the ramrod stirrups became common very late in the flint period and are most often found on percussion weapons.

I now tend to think some shade tree gunsmith in the mid-nineteenth century mated a very fine barrel, smaller parts, and perhaps stock with a very crude action for some reason. Another clue to this theory is the shape of the lock. The "banana" form is typically late 18th century and found on flintlocks. Percussion locks almost always have a flat base.

The lettering at the top of the barrel, were it fully readable, likely would tell us either who made it or retailed it. The proof marks, were they readable, would let us know where and about when it was made (probably answering the original flint or percussion question). The "London" engraving is not definitive because the Belgians marked many such guns in such a way. Though based on the gun's location, a British origin would be likely.

I shoot quite a few damascus barreled guns. I would not dream of ever pouring a load of powder down the muzzle of one in this condition.

I have several of these same type locks as the OP has posted. Mostly used on early percussion fowlers/shotguns and trade guns.

As far as shooting a damascus barrel there shouldn't be a problem since starting with very light loads, cleaning and constantly inspecting the bore after each shot, slowly working up to a recommended full pistol charge of 35-40 grains of 2F powder for this bore size or to the point that determines to discontinue further test firing due to safety concerns.

Since nothing has yet been mentioned or determined by a bore inspection saying not to shoot it is a little premature. I've seen worse looking barrels with very nice clean bores that started as ugly gross looking junk being turned into fine looking usable rifles; not collectors grade, but very presentable.

Timing might be a little frustrating due to the nipple not being removable. Nonetheless can be done.

Being a cavalry officer firearm is something I didn't consider and it would also lend purpose for the short barrel and locking the ramrod in place.

However, without actually seeing how the ramrod is mounted with this piece, logically should the ramrod not be firmly seated into or works loose from the ramrod shaft/stock hole it still has a chance of being dropped or lost during reloading or traveling respectively while the rider is twisting about on horseback.

 

[nztimb]

May have the id of the pistol afyern Ales contacted me with this info. Zt least now he knows what parts to try and source to bring it back to complete unit.

Ref: 2299 - c1830 Good Quality London Proofed (.65”) Smooth Bore Percussion Pistol by ‘Clough of Bath’.​

Description
c1830 Good Quality London Proofed (.65”) Smooth Bore Percussion Pistol by ‘Clough of Bath’.

A good quality London proofed .65” smooth bore percussion pistol by 'Clough of Bath', with back action lock and break off breech. Border and scroll engraved back action lock are signed 'CLOUGH, BATH' with scroll engraved ‘Dolphin Head’ hammer. Walnut stock with chequered bag grip has steel furniture including an engraved trigger guard with pineapple finial to the front and swivel rammer with engraved circular head to the underside of the barrel. Single rammer pipe to the throat of the channel and long trigger guard tang. Single side nail to retain the lock plate to the left side and barrel key to the fore end. Vacant white metal escutcheon to the rear of the scroll engraved, bolt retained, break off breech. Heavy octagonal Damascus Twist browned smooth bore barrel has white metal band to the break off breech, stud foresight to the muzzle and standing windage draftable V notch rear sight. The top flat signed 'CLOUGH BATH' with London Victorian Commercial proof marks stuck to the lower flat below the wood at the breech end. A good quality London proofed gentleman’s traveling, or officers pistol these large bore weapons were very effective over short ranges and were widely carried for self-defence in the mid 1800’s by travellers as protection against theives and robbers.

John Clough of 29 Southgate St. Bath - he was the second generation of gunsmiths, the business having been set up by his father George in 1815. The firm became Clough and Son in 1855. A very nice London proofed pistol by a good provincial retailer in very good condition with good bore and mechanics, a nice sharp well chequered stock and much brown finish to the barrel. Clough and Sons, G. (1820-1860) made cased pairs of percussion travelling pistols and percussion revolvers. Shop in Bath, Somerset (Carey, 1954 (English, Irish and Scottish Firearms Makers)).

Ref: 2299 - c1830 Good Quality London Proofed (.65”) Smooth Bore Percussion Pistol by ‘Clough of Bath’.

Ref: 2299 - c1830 Good Quality London Proofed (.65”) Smooth Bore Percussion Pistol by ‘Clough of Bath’. Armoury Antiques and Militaria ***NOW SOLD***

armouryantiques.com

 

[nztimb]

Hi Garry, as far as I can work out the word on top of the barrel is LONDON. the barrel is 6.5 inches internal length. So the mystery now is, this appears to be a Clough and Sons of Bath pistol circa 1830-40 but with a london barrel. maybe a former gunmaker from bath went to london and made his own pistols? also on the inside of the trigger guard is the number 7, just below the rear most screw hole.
Also the flash protector around the nipple is enclosed from both front and rear, in the photos online it appears Clough pistols are less enclosed??

 

[Ridge Runner]

At 6.5 inch barrel length this is definitely not a target or a dueling pistol, but surprisingly more of a carry self protection type weapon. Again being only 6.5 inch, I doubt this pistol would have been used as a cavalry officer weapon.

Without being able to physically inspect this pistol, I would say your find has a complete, although horribly cared for, pistol.

Now it's a matter of choice for your friend on how he wants to restore the pistol.

Personally, If this was my pistol I would start out by using a polishing wheel and a mild polish to remove the rust from all the parts and a (very) slightly more aggressive polish on a bore swab for polishing the inside of the barrel.

The intent is to buff the metal not trying to remove any pits or browning. Just to in hance further inspection of barrel, parts, fitting (somewhat) everything together,to insure all the parts are there and able to function properly and to make a list of parts that need replaced.