I Bought an unknown - I sure hope this is a 404 Jeffery

[buckstix]

I Bought an unknown - I sure hope this is a 404 Jeffery

Hello all,

When this one came up for auction last month I couldn't resist placing a bid to "tag" it, just to see high it would go.
Apparently my "tag" was too high, because I ended up as the winner. I sure hope it is possibly a 404 Jeffery as described.
The German metric designation for the 404J is 10.75x73 .... this is listed as 10.8x72. Will this be close enough? The fabulous
stock was a big attraction.

Regardless, this looks to be a keeper. I can't wait to get it in hand.


http://www.buckstix.com/buckpics/imman-0.jpg

 

[Zinz]

I was definitely watching that one. It is gorgeous. The odd caliber marking had me wondering.

I sure hope the chamber casting brings you some good news!!

Ed Z

 

[Ridge Runner]

Beautiful rifle.
Congrats.
Hoping it checks out as a 404J for you.

 

[Rez Exelon]

Thinking out loud what is in that range.

404 Jeff is a .423 bullet which metric wise is 10.75 sure.
416 Rem is a .416 bullet which metric wise is 10.57 (rounded).

10.8 is .425 Right offhand I don't know what might have a .425 unless the maker rounded the Jeff up.

Loves me some RIA. I didn't have a snowballs chance in hell on the 98's in 404Jeff and 458Win that were paired up today. 1200-1800 estimated LOL. I threw a bid in and then immediately watched it hit nearly twice the estimated high point. That said, 3k plus BP plus tax plus shipped is probably going to be 4k which I still think is probably a fantastic value for the pairing.

 

[RR 314]

Thinking out loud what is in that range.

404 Jeff is a .423 bullet which metric wise is 10.75 sure.
416 Rem is a .416 bullet which metric wise is 10.57 (rounded).

10.8 is .425 Right offhand I don't know what might have a .425 unless the maker rounded the Jeff up.

Loves me some RIA. I didn't have a snowballs chance in hell on the 98's in 404Jeff and 458Win that were paired up today. 1200-1800 estimated LOL. I threw a bid in and then immediately watched it hit nearly twice the estimated high point. That said, 3k plus BP plus tax plus shipped is probably going to be 4k which I still think is probably a fantastic value for the pairing.

I watched these and Buckstix’ gun as well. The .458 was an abomination. . If won, I was going to cut the bulbous brake off and see how it shot at 19” or so. . I did quite a bit of Internet searching on.Buckstix gun and couldn’t even find that chambering listed anywhere. It certainly is close to .404J.

 

[Rez Exelon]

I watched these and Buckstix’ gun as well. The .458 was an abomination. . If won, I was going to cut the bulbous brake off and see how it shot at 19” or so. . I did quite a bit of Internet searching on.Buckstix gun and couldn’t even find that chambering listed anywhere. It certainly is close to .404J.

I dunno...I kind of liked it. Then again, I also liked the ARX-100 when I first saw it too, and thats best described as fugly enough to be endearing so my taste is certainly questionable at moments. At minimum I'll see things like that and be optimistic that it's a sign someone put some work in and was willing to pay money to a competent smith to tailor the rifle for them.

For what it's worth to the OP, the last wildcat I picked up from RIA is still a work in progress. It's a 416/404JEF and I'm still trying to explore what the heck that means in the real world. I think I can make ammo for it through a convoluted process but have been unwilling to commit to "firing one" as of yet. My local reloading shop got me some bits of lead that should be just about right to beat through the barrel to swage it and then I can hopefully figure out more exactly what it is. Might be worth considering. At minimum if the barrel is really "10.8" then i suppose a drop test could tell easily enough if a .416 or .423 round could go through.

 

[grand veneur]

In the past gunmakers in Germany often used the bore and not the groove diameter. The designation 10,8x72 could also be that of the cartridge 11,2x72 Schüler. The german designation of the cartridge 404 Jeffery is normally 10,75x73.

 

[ofbiro]

I suggest to contact DEVA (German agency for proofing hunting and sporting arms).
email address: deva-institut@t-online.de
Good luck

 

[grand veneur]

The DEVA has no test barrel of the caliber 11,2x72 Schüler. For this one you must contact the proof house from Suhl in Thüringen.

 

[93marlin]

No matter what the actual caliber is, what an awesome rifle!
Part of the fun with old rifles is tracking down the caliber!
When I bought one of my doubles, it was advertised as "unknown" caliber. When I got it looked, it was marked 500e, the comma was a bad strike for an x
So 500ex better known now as 500bpe.

 

[grand veneur]

Nevertheless, it is important to know before one buy it, the caliber of a rifle. In this case there is already a difference between caliber 404 Jeffery and 11,2x72 Schüler. You can still buy cartridges 404 Jeffery in a gun shop, but to buy cartridges 11,2x72 Schüler is a different problem.

 

[buckstix]

The old German proofmarks, as used from 1912 to 1939, often confuse moderns, especially Americans. Most German proofhouses marked not part of the cartridge name nor the larger groove or bullet diameter, but the smaller bore/land diameter. It was measured at the proofhouse using cylindrical plugs in .1 mm increments. Here a 10.8 mm plug passed the bore, but a 10.9 mm one did not. So the actual bore diameter may have been 10.89 mm. You have to add 2x the groove depth of about .1 to .2 mm to get an idea about the groove or bullet diameter.
So I think the 10.8 mm bore and 72mm case length point to the old 11.2x72 Schueler cartridge rather than the .404.

As posted by Axel E., a leading Mauser expert from the German Gun Collecting Forum, I think the mystery caliber is identified.

Although I would have preferred if it was a 404 Jeffery caliber, I will be satisfied with the rifle if its an 11.2x72 Schuler caliber. Fortunately since I have 2 other rifles in the Schuler caliber, I have lots of brass and bullets.

 

[RR 314]

I dunno...I kind of liked it. Then again, I also liked the ARX-100 when I first saw it too, and thats best described as fugly enough to be endearing so my taste is certainly questionable at moments. At minimum I'll see things like that and be optimistic that it's a sign someone put some work in and was willing to pay money to a competent smith to tailor the rifle for them.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Some opinions are simply without merit. . As you utilized, the word of the day is “fugly”. .

 

[buckstix]

I wish the auction house would have listed "believed to be the metric designation for the 11.2x72 Schuler" instead of listing "believed to be the metric designation for the 404 Jeffery". The reason being that the 404 Jeffery is a popular cartridge with readily available commercial ammo, where as; the 11.2x72 Schuler is an obsolete cartridge with no commercial ammo available, and very limited availability of brass and bullets and dies for reloading. If the listing had stated the Schuler caliber, bidding would likely have been much lower. Bidders would have been less likely to buy a rifle that required custom hand-loading, and I would have paid a lot less for the rifle.

 

[Certus]

I’d rather the 11.2 than jeffery

 

[buckstix]

Well, it would not have made any difference to me. I have one 404 Jeffery, and two 11.2 Schulers. But I think most of the others that bid wanted the 404 Jeffery, and would not have wanted, or bid as much for, the 11.2 Schuler.

 

[Doug Hamilton]

I Bought an unknown - I sure hope this is a 404 Jeffery

Hello all,

When this one came up for auction last month I couldn't resist placing a bid to "tag" it, just to see high it would go.
Apparently my "tag" was too high, because I ended up as the winner. I sure hope it is possibly a 404 Jeffery as described.
The German metric designation for the 404J is 10.75x73 .... this is listed as 10.8x72. Will this be close enough? The fabulous
stock was a big attraction.

Regardless, this looks to be a keeper. I can't wait to get it in hand.


http://www.buckstix.com/buckpics/imman-0.jpg

View attachment 615869

Keeper is right! I hope it turns out to be the .404J you are wanting, but even if it isn't, the rifle looks like a piece of art!

 

[buckstix]

I'm 99% sure its going to be an 11.2x72 Schuler caliber.

 

[cajunchefray]

No matter the cartridge/ caliber. You have the tools. An awesome rifle.
I wish I was old enough to know these men that sourced that walnut.

 

[grand veneur]

I’d rather the 11.2 than jeffery

In practice you are better off with the cartridge 404 Jeffery. Aside from the lack of ammunition and reloader tools and components, the cartridge 11,2 x72 Schüler is a compromise to fit into an unmodified Mauser 98 action und magazine. The bullet therefore has to be set very deep, which reduces the powder capacity of the cartridge and therefore the performance. You can achieve the original performance of the low pressure original cartridge 404 Jeffery, but on the contrary to that was already been written so often, no that of the cartridge 416 Rigby. The comparison is a bad choice because this cartridge is more in the 45 class in terms of caliber and could therefore rather be compared with the cartridge 450 Ackley with a 400gr bullet. I have also shot a buffalo with the cartridge 11,2x72 Schüler. It is with a good bullet certainly suitable for big game hunting, in all cases better than the cartridge 10,75x68.