Historical double pricing

[Hornedfrogbbq]

So I keep hearing how the supply/demand imbalance has British double pricing "lower" and at "amazing" prices. Does anyone have charts or historical info to put the current pricing into context? Is it massively cheaper than 6-8 years ago? Which rifles have held value versus which have dropped?

 

[Hornedfrogbbq]

Crickets....

 

[Rare Breed]

I see the exact opposite. not much inventory yet more demand than inventory. I cannot find any slipping of DR pricing

 

[Hornedfrogbbq]

I think it will be telling where some of the doubles trade a

I see the exact opposite. not much inventory yet more demand than inventory. I cannot find any slipping of DR pricing

t the Rock Island auction.

 

[rookhawk]

So I keep hearing how the supply/demand imbalance has British double pricing "lower" and at "amazing" prices. Does anyone have charts or historical info to put the current pricing into context? Is it massively cheaper than 6-8 years ago? Which rifles have held value versus which have dropped?

Yeah, I think you have it upside down and backwards.

Double Shotguns, specifically British 12 bore side by side guns are trading at "amazing" prices. What would have been $5000+ 10-15 years ago is now $3200.

Alternatively, if its a really light weight 28 bore or 410 with long barrels, plain border engraving, good chokes, and a long stock, that gun might have sold as a plain-jane gun 15 years ago for $4000 on a really good day, yet that gun would fetch $12,000 today.

I think you're conflating "doubles" as in shotguns with "double rifles".

Double rifles are about the same price in the UK as they've been for the past ten years. When brought over to the USA, properly regulated, gone through, and with the presentation of a test target showing ideal regulation, they are worth quite a bit more than a speculative rifle of unknown performance thrown up on a British auction site.

People don't know what they don't know so most of them get F'd on these types of purchases. You're going to pay $500-$1000 to get guidance, evaluation, inspection of the weapon during the 3 day return period (you always negotiate one) and a prescription for what work must be done on the gun. That work might take several craftsman and may take you over a year to complete. Most people just go do all this on their own because they do not know their own ignorance sort of the same way as most men answer surveys believing they could safely crash land a small aircraft and walk away. (Neither are correct, they underestimate the complexity and overestimate their proficiency)

 

[Aaron N]

Yeah, I think you have it upside down and backwards.

Double Shotguns, specifically British 12 bore side by side guns are trading at "amazing" prices. What would have been $5000+ 10-15 years ago is now $3200.

Alternatively, if its a really light weight 28 bore or 410 with long barrels, plain border engraving, good chokes, and a long stock, that gun might have sold as a plain-jane gun 15 years ago for $4000 on a really good day, yet that gun would fetch $12,000 today.

I think you're conflating "doubles" as in shotguns with "double rifles".

Double rifles are about the same price in the UK as they've been for the past ten years. When brought over to the USA, properly regulated, gone through, and with the presentation of a test target showing ideal regulation, they are worth quite a bit more than a speculative rifle of unknown performance thrown up on a British auction site.

People don't know what they don't know so most of them get F'd on these types of purchases. You're going to pay $500-$1000 to get guidance, evaluation, inspection of the weapon during the 3 day return period (you always negotiate one) and a prescription for what work must be done on the gun. That work might take several craftsman and may take you over a year to complete. Most people just go do all this on their own because they do not know their own ignorance sort of the same way as most men answer surveys believing they could safely crash land a small aircraft and walk away. (Neither are correct, they underestimate the complexity and overestimate their proficiency)

But with the travelling hunters aging out, downsizing, or liquidating, do you feel like we should see a glut of large bore rifles hit the market if their heirs don’t share the same interests?

 

[Hornedfrogbbq]

Yeah, I think you have it upside down and backwards.

Double Shotguns, specifically British 12 bore side by side guns are trading at "amazing" prices. What would have been $5000+ 10-15 years ago is now $3200.

Alternatively, if its a really light weight 28 bore or 410 with long barrels, plain border engraving, good chokes, and a long stock, that gun might have sold as a plain-jane gun 15 years ago for $4000 on a really good day, yet that gun would fetch $12,000 today.

I think you're conflating "doubles" as in shotguns with "double rifles".

Double rifles are about the same price in the UK as they've been for the past ten years. When brought over to the USA, properly regulated, gone through, and with the presentation of a test target showing ideal regulation, they are worth quite a bit more than a speculative rifle of unknown performance thrown up on a British auction site.

People don't know what they don't know so most of them get F'd on these types of purchases. You're going to pay $500-$1000 to get guidance, evaluation, inspection of the weapon during the 3 day return period (you always negotiate one) and a prescription for what work must be done on the gun. That work might take several craftsman and may take you over a year to complete. Most people just go do all this on their own because they do not know their own ignorance sort of the same way as most men answer surveys believing they could safely crash land a small aircraft and walk away. (Neither are correct, they underestimate the complexity and overestimate their proficiency)

I would assume (but honestly have no clue) that on a purchase of this size, quite a bit of due diligence needs to be done on both a shotgun and a double rifle purchase. I may be wrong but i would think potentially more diligence on a rifle. Re-regulating one of these puppies looks like it might be beyond most hunters/owners capabilities or desires to engage in. The best load that the rifle digests would be massively important. Accuracy being obviously important in any weapon but then add in (regardless of shotgun or double rifle) the need for it to properly fit you. There seems to me to be quite a bit to work out before you actually buy the weapon.

 

[rookhawk]

But with the travelling hunters aging out, downsizing, or liquidating, do you feel like we should see a glut of large bore rifles hit the market if their heirs don’t share the same interests?

We've gone through this theory a lot over the last 30 years. Here's how the facts played out:

At no time did the families that inherited these guns decide to "dump them" on the market save one: The 2008 economic collapse resulted in a lot of guns hitting the market in 2009 and 2010. The so-so to pretty good ones sold cheap just as the story was with all fine art running through the same fine auction houses. However, the best-best-best art in the world rather an oil painting or a fine gun was simultaneously hitting record smashing prices.

Bottom line, it takes more than disinterest to thrust fine art onto the market place in enough quantity to depress the prices. Rather, it requires a global financial meltdown so grandiose that it effects the very affluent so severely they sell things they normally would not sell and at the same time requires the average buyers to be equally broke keeping the hammer prices low for most items. Even then, the super-uber-rich were on a shopping spree that happens only 50-100 years where certain things came to market that were unavailable at any price before or since.

I do not think lead bans or other such annoyances will do anything to the value of English double rifle price or supply, the only thing that suppresses prices is unconventional calibers where you cannot find dies/brass/bullets. If you stick with 450-400NE 3", 470NE, and 500NE you're going to be okay.

 

[rookhawk]

I would assume (but honestly have no clue) that on a purchase of this size, quite a bit of due diligence needs to be done on both a shotgun and a double rifle purchase. I may be wrong but i would think potentially more diligence on a rifle. Re-regulating one of these puppies looks like it might be beyond most hunters/owners capabilities or desires to engage in. The best load that the rifle digests would be massively important. Accuracy being obviously important in any weapon but then add in (regardless of shotgun or double rifle) the need for it to properly fit you. There seems to me to be quite a bit to work out before you actually buy the weapon.

A regulation target, a simple piece of paper with the right information on it, is probably worth about half as much again as the rifle itself. The ultimate trust-but-verify is assurance of a viable, well regulated load. You don't typically get that when you buy at auction.

 

[Hornedfrogbbq]

A regulation target, a simple piece of paper with the right information on it, is probably worth about half as much again as the rifle itself. The ultimate trust-but-verify is assurance of a viable, well regulated load. You don't typically get that when you buy at auction.

Why wouldn't any seller, given this info, go shoot a target with the best load they have for the rifle and include it in the sale? I'm probably confusing terms and that isn't necessarily "re-regulating" or regulating at all but it does show what the weapon is capable of.

 

[rookhawk]

Why wouldn't any seller, given this info, go shoot a target with the best load they have for the rifle and include it in the sale? I'm probably confusing terms and that isn't necessarily "re-regulating" or regulating at all but it does show what the weapon is capable of.

It costs a lot of money and time to build a proper regulating load. A shitty regulation target injures the sale worse than no facts presented whatsoever. Withholding facts occurs occasionally out of ignorance or impatience by the seller, but usually to conceal something unpleasant. Caveat emptor.

 

[ftrovato]

It costs a lot of money and time to build a proper regulating load. A shitty regulation target injures the sale worse than no facts presented whatsoever. Withholding facts occurs occasionally out of ignorance or impatience by the seller, but usually to conceal something unpleasant. Caveat emptor.

I have a Belgium 470 NE for sale on GunsInternational.

To your point, I list that I will provide target, velocity & load rifle regulates too under 2" at 50 yards. And I'll provide the reloads if they want them.

For me, especially if it's an old European Double, the proof of the value is supporting its ability to shoot.

 

[VertigoBE]

I have a Belgium 470 NE for sale on GunsInternational.

To your point, I list that I will provide target, velocity & load rifle regulates too under 2" at 50 yards. And I'll provide the reloads if they want them.

For me, especially if it's an old European Double, the proof of the value is supporting its ability to shoot.

If it’s that Francotte, that’s a beauty

 

[Huvius]

Holland & Holland Royals are definitely down in value than they were 10-15 years ago.
Back then, you could scarcely find a good 450 or 465 for under $70K.
Now they routinely change hands sub $50K.
I think that 8 bore cartridge rifles are in the same boat.

 

[WAB]

I know very little about British double rifles. The comments I have made were specific to British double shotguns. I have the advantage of frequent trips to Britain and a number of friends in the trade to sort things out. The current opportunities in fine double shotguns in the UK are mind boggling. The cost of import is quite reasonable, and if you happen to find one manufactured prior to 1898 (I think that’s the correct year), you write BATF right out of the transaction.

I have seen very little in the way of double rifles in my visits to shops in the UK. However, I’m not really looking.

 

[rookhawk]

Holland & Holland Royals are definitely down in value than they were 10-15 years ago.
Back then, you could scarcely find a good 450 or 465 for under $70K.
Now they routinely change hands sub $50K.
I think that 8 bore cartridge rifles are in the same boat.

I think that's true of all the bore rifles and all the oddity caliber rifles like 333 Rimmed, 318 Rimmed, 450NE, 465, 475, etc.

The prices are still sound on what I'll call "functional art" but if you cannot find brass nor bullets for your best double rifle, its just "art".

I'm not convinced that things are going to improve in that area either. Woodleigh's fire crumbled bullet availability for some of the odd calibers and it has never bounced back. Even now, Woodleigh is focused on making their best sellers in common calibers, typically catering to the much larger magazine rifle clientele.

450-400, 470NE, 500NE....those are your safe large bore options with abundant brass and bullet options compared to all the others.

 

[ftrovato]

If it’s that Francotte, that’s a beauty

 

[VertigoBE]

View attachment 700238

My double in 500NE from an unknown Belgian maker looks like the plain Jane sister to yours:

 

[ftrovato]

My double in 500NE from an unknown Belgian maker looks like the plain Jane sister to yours:

Simply Elegant! These doubles have some simple sexy lines to them!

How does your shoot?

 

[VertigoBE]

Simply Elegant! These doubles have some simple sexy lines to them!

How does your shoot?

When I bought it (very cheaply I might add) it did not come with a good regulating load. So I had to take it to SA, where a friend of @Frederik from BASA, helped in developing a good load for it. He came up with the following recipe: Norma factory cases, with Federal 215 primers, filled with 95 grains of Vihtavuori N540, launching Spoor Bullet Company softs of 570 grain. This produced a 1inch group (R-L-R-L) at 30m.

I used this load to take a buffalo cow at 70m with it. It shoots better than I can shoot with the irons.