Giggity Giggity—Merry Christmas to Me

[Tom Leoni]

Army & Navy .450/400 3.25” N.E., accurate and with regulating loading data.

 

[Red Leg]

Very nice. Not the quickest reload, but the underlever will never shoot loose. Truly lovely rifle. How is it proofed?

 

[Tom Leoni]

Hi, @Red Leg - it's the standard 60-400 - here is the proofing info:

 

[Doug3006]

Stunning firearm Tom. I love the underlever.

 

[Red Leg]

Great old rifle. Someone knew what they were doing when the case coloring was restored.

 

[Aaron N]

Were many of these hammer guns nitro proofed?

 

[Tom Leoni]

Were many of these hammer guns nitro proofed?

That's a very interesting question, and one for which I unfortunately don't have an educated answer.

Westley Richards introduced their hammerless action in 1875, and the first true nitro express cartridge appeared 23 years later. What rough percentage of rifles continued to be produced with hammers throughout the 1880s and '90s is unknown to me, much less how great a share of them were reproofed for cordite (reduced or full NE loads). Likewise I don't know what percentage of new nitro express rifles would have been manufactured with an older-style hammer action in the early NE age--i.e., in the years between 1898 and (say) 1910ish.

All I know for sure is that I've seen quite a fair amount of nitro-proofed hammer guns, especially featuring the vault-strong Jones underlever-type action.

 

[Aaron N]

That's a very interesting question, and one for which I unfortunately don't have an educated answer.

Westley Richards introduced their hammerless action in 1875, and the first true nitro express cartridge appeared 23 years later. What rough percentage of rifles continued to be produced with hammers throughout the 1880s and '90s is unknown to me, much less how great a share of them were reproofed for cordite (reduced or full NE loads). Likewise I don't know what percentage of new nitro express rifles would have been manufactured with an older-style hammer action in the early NE age--i.e., in the years between 1898 and (say) 1910ish.

All I know for sure is that I've seen quite a fair amount of nitro-proofed hammer guns, especially featuring the vault-strong Jones underlever-type action.

For some reason I really like the looks of a hammer gun, and also the Jones Underlever

 

[Tom Leoni]

For some reason I really like the looks of a hammer gun, and also the Jones Underlever

Yep. Me too, especially combined with the elegance of a back-action sidelock.

 

[CJW]

For some reason I really like the looks of a hammer gun, and also the Jones Underlever

I believe the word is elegance.

 

[ZG47]

I also like the idea of the underlever. Top levers simply do not work for me and as a carpenter, I am accustomed to using nice big hand-sized levers on tools. Great rifle. Thank you for showing it to us.

 

[rigbymauser]

A man who truly understands himself.

Congratulations Sir.

Excellent choice.

 

[AZDAVE]

What a nice Christmas present to yourself. The jones underlever hammer guns are just a classic rifle that is as another member put it elegant. No there is DG waiting to hear the bark on a quick right and left barrel in the jess.

 

[Tom Leoni]

What a nice Christmas present to yourself. The jones underlever hammer guns are just a classic rifle that is as another member put it elegant. No there is DG waiting to hear the bark on a quick right and left barrel in the jess.

Oh, yes. And best part of all? I am buying it from J.J. Perodeau--so it comes with his knowledge and expertise behind it.

 

[Shootist43]

Tom that is without a doubt the "nicest" Christmas gift I've seen posted on AH so far this year. Do you have any of this rifle's history?

 

[meigsbucks]

What a wonderful find. The case hardening is fantastic and the under lever is “classic”. Congratulations.

 

[Tom Leoni]

Tom that is without a doubt the "nicest" Christmas gift I've seen posted on AH so far this year. Do you have any of this rifle's history?

Thank you, @Shootist43 - I literally saw it at 2:55 PM yesterday and by 2:57 I had bought it. I simply knew I had to have it! Unfortunately I don't have any details as to the history of it. I'll ask J.J. (the seller) who the most likely maker is--that will be a great start.

A bit of firearm history about Army and Navy Cooperative Society, Ltd., copied from a post on thedoublegunshop.com:

"The gun department opened in 1873 at 105 Victoria Street. The manager was S. J. F. Newbury who retired in 1909, F. W. Cole replaced him. At some time the Society became a limited company [...] In 1888 the gun department moved to the adjacent building at 8 Howick Place but, probably at this time, it briefly moved to 117 Victoria Street. In 1890 a branch was opened in Bombay by Thomas Lawrence (ex Purdey), followed by a branch in Calcutta (managed from 1901 by Archie Leeson, son of W. R. Leeson of Ashford, Kent, and London, and brother of Reg Leeson of R. B. Rodda of Calcutta). By 1901 other branches in Delhi and Karachi had been opened and agents had been appointed in South Africa (in Cape Town and Durban).

"Although the Society made some of the other products it sold, they never made guns; guns and rifles were bought mainly from Birmingham, bearing either the Army & Navy name or the manufacturers name. Philip Webley, W. & C. Scott (later Webley & Scott), Westley Richards, Greener, Tranter, Vickers, Mauser, Mannlicher, Colt, Winchester, Smith & Wesson, Marlin, Hopkins & Allen and others all supplied the company. Not only guns but also ammunition bore Army & Navy names, Reliable, Victoria and A. & N. Nitro amongst them. At some time the company had a shooting ground at Greenford. In 1934 the Society became Army & Navy Stores Ltd., and it opened its doors to the general public."

Given the fact that the barrel flats don't look like they were reproofed, there is a possibility that the rifle was made expressly (heh) for the nitro round. So, if I had to guess, I'd say it was made sometime between 1899 and 1902 (when Jeffery introduced the 3" version) or shortly after. As for the maker, I don't think it's a Westley Richards, since it's a hammer gun, so my guess is that it could be a Webley--but I'm wading into the deep waters of too many assumptions. Either way, it's a fantastic-looking rifle and J.J. tells me it's a really good shooter with tight bores and easy loads that regulate very well in it.

Can't wait to take it to Africa!

 

[degoins]

Wow.......very nice......congrats!!!

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

I believe the word is elegance.

@CJW
I agree pure elegance combined with a lot of class and age

 

[Brian Rothhammer]

Thank you, @Shootist43 - I literally saw it at 2:55 PM yesterday and by 2:57 I had bought it. I simply knew I had to have it! Unfortunately I don't have any details as to the history of it. I'll ask J.J. (the seller) who the most likely maker is--that will be a great start.

A bit of firearm history about Army and Navy Cooperative Society, Ltd., copied from a post on thedoublegunshop.com:

"The gun department opened in 1873 at 105 Victoria Street. The manager was S. J. F. Newbury who retired in 1909, F. W. Cole replaced him. At some time the Society became a limited company [...] In 1888 the gun department moved to the adjacent building at 8 Howick Place but, probably at this time, it briefly moved to 117 Victoria Street. In 1890 a branch was opened in Bombay by Thomas Lawrence (ex Purdey), followed by a branch in Calcutta (managed from 1901 by Archie Leeson, son of W. R. Leeson of Ashford, Kent, and London, and brother of Reg Leeson of R. B. Rodda of Calcutta). By 1901 other branches in Delhi and Karachi had been opened and agents had been appointed in South Africa (in Cape Town and Durban).

"Although the Society made some of the other products it sold, they never made guns; guns and rifles were bought mainly from Birmingham, bearing either the Army & Navy name or the manufacturers name. Philip Webley, W. & C. Scott (later Webley & Scott), Westley Richards, Greener, Tranter, Vickers, Mauser, Mannlicher, Colt, Winchester, Smith & Wesson, Marlin, Hopkins & Allen and others all supplied the company. Not only guns but also ammunition bore Army & Navy names, Reliable, Victoria and A. & N. Nitro amongst them. At some time the company had a shooting ground at Greenford. In 1934 the Society became Army & Navy Stores Ltd., and it opened its doors to the general public."

Given the fact that the barrel flats don't look like they were reproofed, there is a possibility that the rifle was made expressly (heh) for the nitro round. So, if I had to guess, I'd say it was made sometime between 1899 and 1902 (when Jeffery introduced the 3" version) or shortly after. As for the maker, I don't think it's a Westley Richards, since it's a hammer gun, so my guess is that it could be a Webley--but I'm wading into the deep waters of too many assumptions. Either way, it's a fantastic-looking rifle and J.J. tells me it's a really good shooter with tight bores and easy loads that regulate very well in it.

Can't wait to take it to Africa!

Army & Navy cased Mannlicher Schoenauer Take Down Model