Fences

[Pheroze]

The concept of fenced properties generates a lot of discussion here. Unfortunately the discussion gets confusing because of the fact certain terms are not really understood. I thought I would start a thread to remove the confusion.

A useful reference is found at the Rowland Ward website. The company acknowledges that fenced properties are a necessary aspect of game management, especially for the protection of people. However, their definition of a fenced property is one that completely inhibits the animals movement. Any fence that does not do that is not considered a "fenced" property.

A fenced property is acceptable if the herd within its boundaries is self-sustaining, not routinely fed and able to avoid hunters.

My thoughts are that if you are concerned about fences don't confuse fences that really only separate property boundaries, are used as a part of the farm management of livestock or serve to block people, no matter how high. And, if it is "fenced" to prevent the animals escape consider what that means for the herd as that question is the central issue.

The Rowland Ward concepts are found at this link, and in other text on the website.

Records of Big Game - Rowland Ward

Rowland Ward instructions and method forms on measurements.

rowlandward.org

Another aspect of this discussion is the idea of a "wild" place. My thoughts are that a place being "wild" is a different concept than whether it is fenced. I think that the aspect of a place being "wild" has more to do with the available infrastructure than whether it has a fence. There are many places that are very challenging to access, therefore lacks a lot of human activity, but you could chance across a fence placed to mark a property boundary.

These are just my thoughts on the issue. Happy hunting

 

[Philip Glass]

Thanks for this valuable info. I am just back from hunting the EC of RSA with Frontier Safaris. They own 75,000 contiguous acres there. The fence is just a formality on a property that large. It is wild and extremely challenging to hunt. These type of properties have truly recreated wild Africa!
Philip
(hunt report coming)

 

[Pheroze]

Thanks for this valuable info. I am just back from hunting the EC of RSA with Frontier Safaris. They own 75,000 contiguous acres there. The fence is just a formality on a property that large. It is wild and extremely challenging to hunt. These type of properties have truly recreated wild Africa!
Philip
(hunt report coming)

Looking forward to the report

 

[Ridge Runner]

Being an American, living east of the Mississippi River, with exceptions of the State of Illinois and most public hunting lands, farmers and most private property owners fence their property generally using 4 to 5 feet high fences the same as I have seen on African farms. Thereby hunting private property is done on fenced property.

Eastern farms are generally not larger than 500 acres. Some "game farms" may be as large as 1500 acres with fences 8 to 10 feet high for the purpose of keeping, mainly whitetail deer herd(s) on their property for the purpose of paying hunters to hunt massive antler size deer, that has been enhanced by feed plots and or grain feeders. (IMPO a comparative to both an African "can" and "cull" hunts.)


West of the Mississippi River to the Rocky Mountains,the plains and dessert states the land is more open, less populated and farms are much larger up into the thousands of acres where again low 4-5 feet high fences will be found and "game farms" will have 8-10 feet or higher fences to hunt within.

High as in 20-30 feet high fencing made up of post, Americans refer as "telephone poles" and steel cable with 12 feet or higher heavy wire fence at the bottom of these massive fences to keep dangerous game animal (s) on the property to protect neighbors and their livestock, with exceptions to "can (predominantly lion) hunts" and "put and stalk farms", most African farms are in the 10's to 100's of thousands of acres.

Not so much of a joke, but What African's call farms here in the states we call counties/parishes.

And when comparing European size farms to African farms the vast size difference is even more eminence.

(As foreign hunters) Thus if hunting in one's own respective location hunting a landowners fenced property is okay, then........... Why is it such a controversy hunting in Africa on "farms" that are so large with "some" 4 feet high pasture fencing such a problem?....Is what I don't understand.

Be it "the Dense Dark Jungles" [of] Africa, "Wild West" America, or "Medieval Age" Europe....The sad reality is... those eras are long gone. In this day and time we can only imagine what those eras in time were like and only wish or dream we could have such a hunt today.

 

[Red Leg]

Being an American, living east of the Mississippi River, with exceptions of the State of Illinois and most public hunting lands, farmers and most private property owners fence their property generally using 4 to 5 feet high fences the same as I have seen on African farms. Thereby hunting private property is done on fenced property.

Eastern farms are generally not larger than 500 acres. Some "game farms" may be as large as 1500 acres with fences 8 to 10 feet high for the purpose of keeping, mainly whitetail deer herd(s) on their property for the purpose of paying hunters to hunt massive antler size deer.

West of the Mississippi River to the western side of the Rocky Mountains the land is more open, less populated and farms are much larger up into the thousands of acres where again low 4-5 feet high fences will be found and "game farms" will have 8-10 feet or higher fences to hunt within.

High as in 20-30 feet high fencing made up of telephone poles and steel cable with 12 feet or higher heavy wire fence at the bottom of these massive fences to keep dangerous game animal (s) on the property to protect neighbors and their livestock, with exceptions to "can (predominantly lion) hunts" and "put and stalk farms", most African farms are in the 10's to 100's of thousands of acres.

Not so much of a joke, but What African's call farms here in the states we call counties/parishes.

And when comparing European size farms to African farms the vast size difference is even more eminence.

(As foreign hunters) Thus if hunting in one's own respective location hunting with a landowners fenced property is okay, then........... Why is it such a controversy hunting in Africa on "farms" that are so large with "some" 4 feet high pasture fencing such a problem?....Is what I don't understand. Be it "the dense dark jungles" (of) Africa, "Wild West" America, or "Medieval Age" Europe the reality is... those times are long gone, in this day and time we can only imagine what those early times were like and only wish we could have such a hunt today.

Before going to far down this path, I think we very much need to acknowledge the difference between game fencing and domestic animal fencing. In my experience, very little of the country east of the Mississippi has fencing that in anyway inhibits the movement of game. In that region, we are speaking primarily of whitetail deer and black bear. Frankly, that is also true of most everywhere I have been on the other side of the river. Pockets of game ranching exist in places like the Hill Country of Texas, but on the whole, most of the country is fenced to hold cattle and other domestic animals. A standard barbed wire fence in no way inhibits the movement of most North American game animals. Deer go over and pronghorns go under. Therefore, while technically "fenced," such terrain is very much "free range" though hardly wilderness. No record book differentiates between a whitetail taken on a cattle ranch in the Big Bend country, a cornfield in Iowa, or a cane break in Louisiana. But most do differentiate between one taken from those places and one within a game fence.

Game fences create an artificial environment. The quality and size of that environment is what determines the quality, and to my mind at least, the ethical nature of that hunting opportunity. As noted by the OP, if the game constrained environment is large enough to maintain self-sustaining herds - and if the game animal doesn't know it is restrained - then such environments represent both tremendous hunting opportunities, but also invaluable wild game sanctuaries. On the other hand, 500 acres behind a high fence containing 60 released, protein enhanced 160"+ whitetail is another matter entirely.

Similar contrasting environments can be found in South Africa.

 

[Ridge Runner]

The way I interpreted the OP, he pretty much summed up the perceived differences between high fence and boundary fence.

My intent was to elaborate that some foreign hunters that want a "totally free range" hunt, don't want to see any kind of fencing, or that fencing of any kind on a hunting property makes it a fenced in hunt. When in reality a comparison between what Africans' consider a farm and what Americans' consider a farm is as different as night and day.

Even on /in parts of public hunting lands fencing can be found. Although the fencing is private property owners marking their property line(s) or old, rusted, mashed down fencing that was in place, no longer used, prior to the state or federal government taking possession of the land.

 

[buckshot85]

I was told by an outfitter from Zimbabwe that there isn’t much public land that can be be hunted in RSA & Zim. If that’s the case, of course there will be fences.
I will never hunt anything in the US behind a fence. I believe there is still plenty of huntable public land.
My wife and I are hunting and sight seeing RSA next spring. The fences are of no concern to us as it is what it is. It’s private land that is fenced. The type or dimensions of the fence are irrelevant. That being said, we made sure the property is not 50 acre pen.
It’s still nice to have the illusion of “wild” as it can be.

 

[Mark A Ouellette]

On a 15000 acre ranch in South Africa, I never saw a fence or person that wasn't on the staff.

Hunting blocks in Zimbabwe we met locals on foot, bicycle, and ox cart. As interesting as it was, those locals did not contribute to the hunt.

Was one one area better than the other? Not really, only different. There are of course wide open areas in Africa. They will just cost one more to hunt. If that is what someone requires, pay the money and enjoy.

 

[Philip Glass]

Being an American, living east of the Mississippi River, with exceptions of the State of Illinois and most public hunting lands, farmers and most private property owners fence their property generally using 4 to 5 feet high fences the same as I have seen on African farms. Thereby hunting private property is done on fenced property.

Eastern farms are generally not larger than 500 acres. Some "game farms" may be as large as 1500 acres with fences 8 to 10 feet high for the purpose of keeping, mainly whitetail deer herd(s) on their property for the purpose of paying hunters to hunt massive antler size deer, that has been enhanced by feed plots and or grain feeders. (IMPO a comparative to both an African "can" and "cull" hunts.)


West of the Mississippi River to the Rocky Mountains,the plains and dessert states the land is more open, less populated and farms are much larger up into the thousands of acres where again low 4-5 feet high fences will be found and "game farms" will have 8-10 feet or higher fences to hunt within.

High as in 20-30 feet high fencing made up of post, Americans refer as "telephone poles" and steel cable with 12 feet or higher heavy wire fence at the bottom of these massive fences to keep dangerous game animal (s) on the property to protect neighbors and their livestock, with exceptions to "can (predominantly lion) hunts" and "put and stalk farms", most African farms are in the 10's to 100's of thousands of acres.

Not so much of a joke, but What African's call farms here in the states we call counties/parishes.

And when comparing European size farms to African farms the vast size difference is even more eminence.

(As foreign hunters) Thus if hunting in one's own respective location hunting a landowners fenced property is okay, then........... Why is it such a controversy hunting in Africa on "farms" that are so large with "some" 4 feet high pasture fencing such a problem?....Is what I don't understand.

Be it "the Dense Dark Jungles" [of] Africa, "Wild West" America, or "Medieval Age" Europe....The sad reality is... those eras are long gone. In this day and time we can only imagine what those eras in time were like and only wish or dream we could have such a hunt today.

I take exception to calling high fence ranches canned hunting. Canned hunting is taking a particular animal and shooting it in- Literally- a pen.
I challenge you to come walk and stalk whitetail deer with me on one of the 1300+/- acre high fenced pastures. Then we will see if you call it canned hunting.
regards,
Philip

 

[Fixfire]

Before going to far down this path, I think we very much need to acknowledge the difference between game fencing and domestic animal fencing. In my experience, very little of the country east of the Mississippi has fencing that in anyway inhibits the movement of game. In that region, we are speaking primarily of whitetail deer and black bear. Frankly, that is also true of most everywhere I have been on the other side of the river. Pockets of game ranching exist in places like the Hill Country of Texas, but on the whole, most of the country is fenced to hold cattle and other domestic animals. A standard barbed wire fence in no way inhibits the movement of most North American game animals. Deer go over and pronghorns go under. Therefore, while technically "fenced," such terrain is very much "free range" though hardly wilderness. No record book differentiates between a whitetail taken on a cattle ranch in the Big Bend country, a cornfield in Iowa, or a cane break in Louisiana. But most do differentiate between one taken from those places and one within a game fence.

Game fences create an artificial environment. The quality and size of that environment is what determines the quality, and to my mind at least, the ethical nature of that hunting opportunity. As noted by the OP, if the game constrained environment is large enough to maintain self-sustaining herds - and if the game animal doesn't know it is restrained - then such environments represent both tremendous hunting opportunities, but also invaluable wild game sanctuaries. On the other hand, 500 acres behind a high fence containing 60 released, protein enhanced 160"+ whitetail is another matter entirely.

Similar contrasting environments can be found in South Africa.

I’d say Red Leg summarizes the North American hunter’s experience and understanding of “fencing” perfectly.

 

[fourfive8]

Well, in response to the OP’s post, a high fence is a high fence. How any hunter views it depends on the individual’s hunting culture paradigm. Rationalization can be contorted to include any manner or number of equivalents to the effects of a high fence- but IMO, simply rationalizations.

 

[buckshot85]

Well, in response to the OP’s post, a high fence is a high fence. How any hunter views it depends on the individual’s hunting culture paradigm. Rationalization can be contorted to include any manner or number of equivalents to the effects of a high fence- but IMO, simply rationalizations.

Is that a yes or no?

 

[Tgood1]

I love to hunt a certain property in limpopo province in rsa bordering Botswana, I can step across fence along river but the lateral and frontal fences are huge and well maintained. Animals are wild as hell and make a bee line to Botswana with pressure, just like elk on fringes of Yellowstone. Keep an eye out for hunts like this

 

[R.M.C.]

I hunted a place in South Texas that just had an old barbed wire fence around it but it was bordered by high fence from the neighbors farms on three sides lol. I managed to rationalize it and shot some hogs lol
If the outfitter had let me know his neighbors recently finished erecting a high fence around nearly three sides of the property , I might have thought twice. But I don't think it had much bearing on that hunt, hogs go to feeders and get shot. But I wouldn't pay two cents to hunt deer there, the owner could describe each buck that came to the feeders and what time they were likely to appear. Interesting topic lol

 

[Tgood1]

We share the same dilemmas

 

[wesheltonj]

High fenced is not really a problem. I have seen whitetail and axis jump 8 foot fences with regularity. I know some of the exotics two ranch’s over from me have jumped the 8 foot fence too.

 

[Ridge Runner]

I take exception to calling high fence ranches canned hunting. Canned hunting is taking a particular animal and shooting it in- Literally- a pen.
I challenge you to come walk and stalk whitetail deer with me on one of the 1300+/- acre high fenced pastures. Then we will see if you call it canned hunting.
regards,
Philip

Apologies if you find that particular comment offensive, but it is what it is. It's called hunting:
1) because the query has the opportunity to the elude and escape
2) it's work and effort to be successful whether stalking, spot and stalk, or putting up a ground blind or tree stand over looking a game trail, there aren't any guarantees the game will travel that particular area at a specific time.

However, when clients pay (by inch) by the size of the antlers, sit in a shooting house overlooking several electronic feeders that deer and hogs are a custom to by the timers and sound of the feeders, much like cattle come to the feed trough when they here the grain feeder(s) turn on or waiting about the feed trough for the tractor to enter the pasture to drop off hay and feed, then I consider it a can hunt because it's not hunting, it's pick the size and shoot it.

For those that are disabled, have limited mobility, parent(s) introducing youngster(s) to the outdoors, city slickers that want to claim they hunted, it's still just shooting, but at least it's getting unplugged and outdoors.

The fore mentioned doesn't include hunting over a food plot or grain field that doesn't have electronic feeders. These are two different types of setups.

Two different scenarios between stalking game and sitting watching waiting for the electronic game feeders to turn on to draw critters out into a shooting lane.

Phillip, If you are seriously inviting me to come hunt your property I will gladly accept your offer. Shoot me a PM.

 

[wesheltonj]

. . . sit in a shooting house overlooking several electronic feeders that deer and hogs are a custom to by the timers and sound of the feeders, . . . then I consider it a can hunt because it's not hunting, it's pick the size and shoot it. . .

The fore mentioned doesn't include hunting over a food plot or grain field that doesn't have electronic feeders. These are two different types of setups.

Two different scenarios between stalking game and sitting watching waiting for the electronic game feeders to turn on to draw critters out into a shooting lane. . .

No difference to me, they are both hunts over bait. I don't have a problem hunting either way.

 

[Ridge Runner]

No difference to me, they are both hunts over bait. I don't have a problem hunting either way.

The difference is whether an agricultural field or a food plot the critters come to feed at their leisure not out of habit.

The electric motor on a timed feeder is an audible "dinner bell" the critters become accustomed/trained to respond to that it becomes a regular daily habit.

Once animals become conditioned, it won't make an immediate difference if the feeder motor turned on or not, the critters will continue to show up about the same time for several days expecting an easy meal.

 

[Fixfire]

I would really love to hunt Mt. Lion/Cougar here in NA but go back and forth in my mind whether using dogs to shoot a lion in a tree is sport?!?!? I know there’s a tradition and practicality to that way of hunting, but it still may bother me. Sorry to go off track. Funny, would also never hunt baited bears, but see nothing wrong with Leopard hunting!!!!! I know, I’m confused!