Federal Nitro Express Ammo Regulation

[rookhawk]

has 470NE Federal ammo changed since the 1990s, or will older guns regulated with it initially still shoot straight with current federal products? (In double rifles)

 

[Hoss Delgado]

I just asked an Australian friend of mine who owns a .470 Nitro Express Double side by side in this caliber.
According to him , you will not notice a difference.

 

[Red Leg]

He was lucky. That has not been my experience at all. Often they will not regulate the same if simply different lot numbers of exactly the same load in current production - much less twenty or thirty years apart. That should not be surprising. The same effect can be seen in a bolt action, where one lot is a tack driver and another shoots patterns in the same rifle. A double compounds the differences enormously. However, if hoping to find a factory load that will work, it is the logical first stop.

 

[rookhawk]

He was lucky. That has not been my experience at all. Often they will not regulate the same if simply different lot numbers of exactly the same load in current production - much less twenty or thirty years apart. That should not be surprising. The same effect can be seen in a bolt action, where one lot is a tack driver and another shoots patterns in the same rifle. A double compounds the differences enormously. However, if hoping to find a factory load that will work, it is the logical first stop.

For reference, I asked Ken Owen recently about the “Federal Recipe”. He states they use 4831 so it fills the case, thus avoiding the need for stuffing or card wad. They then use an insanely powerful primer called a 216 for ignition that they don’t sell to the public.

Ken further stated that all is well and fine with this strategy because they use a 24” test barrel and most modern guns are 24”. However, he states that in 26” guns they gain so much additional velocity with Federal ammo that it doesn’t regulate with the gun properly.

Just passing on hearsay from me that I heard from a true expert for future reference on the topic.

Back to my issue, I guess I’ll have to see if current production Federal ammo operates to the same spec as it did in 1999 when the gun was made and regulated to that era’s product.

 

[Hoss Delgado]

He was lucky. That has not been my experience at all. Often they will not regulate the same if simply different lot numbers of exactly the same load in current production - much less twenty or thirty years apart. That should not be surprising. The same effect can be seen in a bolt action, where one lot is a tack driver and another shoots patterns in the same rifle. A double compounds the differences enormously. However, if hoping to find a factory load that will work, it is the logical first stop.

But Red Leg , aren't all double rifles ( especially one of such a large caliber as .470 ) used at really close range anyway ? My Australian friend , Clay uses a .470 NE Double Rifle for Water Buffalo . He uses Kynoch , Federal and Norma extensively. From what l have seen , he never shoots until he is 50 ish yards away from them.
I don't Have much experience with Doubles , to be honest. I have only fired Clay's .470 A few times ( including shooting a water buffalo with it once ) . But to me , it seems like a close range affair.

 

[rookhawk]

But Red Leg , aren't all double rifles ( especially one of such a large caliber as .470 ) used at really close range anyway ? My Australian friend , Clay uses a .470 NE Double Rifle for Water Buffalo . He uses Kynoch , Federal and Norma extensively. From what l have seen , he never shoots until he is 50 ish yards away from them.
I don't Have much experience with Doubles , to be honest. I have only fired Clay's .470 A few times ( including shooting a water buffalo with it once ) . But to me , it seems like a close range affair.

True, but if you pay large coin for an ultra premium double you’re expecting 1.5”-2” groups at 50 yards and 5”-6” groups at 100 yards. Certainly they did that when they left the factory, you want it repeatable. If the gun is more accurate, margin of error is better.

 

[Hoss Delgado]

True, but if you pay large coin for an ultra premium double you’re expecting 1.5”-2” groups at 50 yards and 5”-6” groups at 100 yards. Certainly they did that when they left the factory, you want it repeatable. If the gun is more accurate, margin of error is better.

I am asking him again and will post his reply

 

[Red Leg]

But Red Leg , aren't all double rifles ( especially one of such a large caliber as .470 ) used at really close range anyway ? My Australian friend , Clay uses a .470 NE Double Rifle for Water Buffalo . He uses Kynoch , Federal and Norma extensively. From what l have seen , he never shoots until he is 50 ish yards away from them.
I don't Have much experience with Doubles , to be honest. I have only fired Clay's .470 A few times ( including shooting a water buffalo with it once ) . But to me , it seems like a close range affair.

With my Blaser S2 I get composite 2 - 2.5 inch 4 round LxR/LxR groups at 100 meters. I have killed buffalo with it at 70 yards and a waterbuck at 160 with the .375 barrels in place (and a bunch of stuff in between). It is scoped. Of course it is instantly removable should I ever have to follow-up an animal (that has not yet occurred). It has 30-06 and 500/416 barrels that are equally accurate. The 'o6 has killed reedbuck at nearly 200. My open sighted doubles are regulated to be on the sights at seventy yards. None, including a couple of pre-WWII 9.3x74R's will shoot worse than three- three and a half inch composite groups at that range. My eyes are the only limiting factor. One of those does that easily at 100 meters with the scope in place. Another, was built to put the right barrel on the sight at 70 meters are so, and the left barrel at 150. Those clever Germans. I am uninterested in a fifty-yard rifle of any type. Of course, all of these are with loads developed for the rifles and custom loaded.

I have a .470 that I am about to start to shoot. I have three different commercial loads - we'll see - might get lucky. Probably not. It will then go to Hendershot's in Maryland where Lance Hendershot will try to work up a load that regulates. Failing that, the load that shoots closest to MOA from each barrel regardless of separation will go to JJ Perodeaux for re-regulation of the rifle to that load. When we are done it will regulate at seventy, and be capable of an accurate second shot over open sights at a departing bull out to 120 or so. Of course it will be deadly at spitting difference.

Heck, even my 12 Bore Evans Paradox will put four 740 gr bullets into three inches at 100 meters. Ross Seyfried developed that load and it is more accurate than either of us.

Unlike a bespoke rifle, virtually all lower and middle grade doubles are now "regulated" to put two bullets inside a three-inch or so circle at 50 meters. No one seems to care very much if they cross (they shouldn't). Therefore, they do tend to come from the factory as sub-50 meter rifles. Rather severely limits one's flexibility on a buffalo hunt where the client may get only one or two opportunities at less than optimal range.

 

[Hoss Delgado]

With my Blaser S2 I get composite 2 - 2.5 inch 4 round LxR/LxR groups at 100 meters. I have killed buffalo with it at 70 yards and a waterbuck at 160 with the .375 barrels in place. It is scoped. Of course it is instantly removable should I ever have to follow-up an animal (that has not yet occurred). It has 30-06 and 500/416 barrels that are equally accurate. The 'o6 has killed reedbuck at nearly 200. My open sighted doubles are regulated to be on the sights at seventy yards. None, including a couple of pre-WWII 9.3x74R's will shoot worse than three- three and a half inch composite groups at that range. My eyes are the only limiting factor. One of those does that easily at 100 meters with the scope in place. I am uninterested in a fifty-yard rifle of any type. Of course, all of these are with loads developed for the rifles and custom loaded.

I have a .470 that I am about to start to shoot. I have three different commercial loads - we'll see - might get lucky. Probably not. It will then go to Hendershot's in Maryland where Lance Hendershot will try to work up a load that regulates. Failing that, the load that shoots closest to MOA from each barrel regardless of separation will go to JJ Perodeaux for re-regulation of the rifle to that load. When we are done it will regulate at seventy, and be capable of an accurate second shot over open sights at a departing bull out to 120 or so. Of course it will be deadly at spitting difference.

Heck, even my 12 Bore Evans Paradox will put four 740 gr bullets into three inches at 100 meters. Ross Seyfried developed that load and it is more accurate than either of us.

It's a pure speculation , but l have a hunch that if your .470 NE is a vintage , it will regulate the best with Kynoch ammo.
About Ross Seyfried ... Is this the same Ross Seyfried , who invented the .585 Nyatti ? I have heard so much about these huge rifles but never got to ever hold one or see one face to face , let alone fire it.

 

[Red Leg]

It will regulate best with whatever load is developed for it. Might get lucky with a "good enough" commercial load, but I fully expect Hendershot's will cook up something very accurate.

Ross did indeed create that thing. I can't imagine anyone else going to the trouble of building such a beast from turned down .577 brass. To say it has not exactly exploded onto the dangerous game market is something of an understatement. Now were Tyrannosaurs still on license, that 10K of energy might prove useful - but I would want it mounted on a gun carriage. He spends most of his time getting up and running and writing about classic rifles. An art about which he is something of a genius. He still publishes superb articles quarterly in the "Double Gun Journal." And Tony Makris has used many of his loads in his older rifles in "Under Wild Skies."