Down loading the 458WM to 45-70??

[Ridge Runner]

Need some help with a recoil sensitive shooter going on a Canadian bear hunt.

Although I do have a new 45-70 lever action, she would much rather use a bolt action and the only other option is to download my 458WM to upper 45-70 loads.

Is this doable? or are there more recoil friendly other large bore options?

I've already suggested a 12 gauge with 3 inch slugs.

They will be hunting for tree stands and she is expecting her longest shot to be around 30 yards. Yeah, we all know....expect the unexpected. Last bear season she used the guide's 270 and missed. When I saw how she shoulder my rifle I know why...she needs more range time. And she favors her shoulder...medical problem...I'm going to try to get her to wear a shooter's (shoulder) pad. 50/50 psychological and to actually help to keep her from re injuring her shoulder.

Much appreciated any and all suggestions.

 

[flatwater bill]

I shoot and test a lot of shotgun slugs.
The 12 ga "Classic Magnum" Brenneke 2 3/4 inch original (for smooth bores) at 1 1/8 oz or the 20 ga Rottweil 15/16 oz Laser slug (for rifled barrels) will kill any Black bear on Earth at short range. (I use a Leupold Short Range scope on a rifled Benelli 20ga, and that slug has shot thru moose.) A 3" 12 ga slug is overkill and over-recoil for your needs. IMO. Someone else will have to answer regarding the 458 WM.......best of luck with whatever you decide........FWB

 

[Hunter4752001]

A 300gr projectile, either Barnes or conventional, with a light load of H4198 should be quite manageable. I've recently tried a load which gives me a 300gr monometal 458 projectile at 2700 fps but feels very mild. Even milder is a load with a 300gr Sierra HP/FN at 2,400 fps or below (don't use above 2,400).
Haven't used on game as yet but should be quite effective.

 

[Ridge Runner]

Thanks for the info flatwater bill.

The 3" slugs are Remington or Winchester. They only advertise 1200+, 1300+ or 1400 fps, with a 1 or 1 1/8 (?) ounce slug. Regardless they didn't preform as good as the Breneke slugs at 100 yards. At 25 and 50 they were close, killing paper.

I have a Remington 11-87, 12 gauge, scoped, rifle slug barrel and some 7/8 and/ or 1 Oz Beneke slugs, 2 3/4 inch, I think they are rated/ advertised at 1550 or 1800 fps. I did a ballistic chart on them seems, I'll have to look, but the energy / knock down were good out 500 yards for deer. The "bullet"/ slug drop was around 3 - 6 feet (?) at 500 yards with a 25 yard zero. I did a post here on AH awhile back debunking the myth that shotguns where only good to 50 yards.

As soon as I can get my reloading equipment set back up one of the items on my projects lists is to reload and test 12 gauge 2 1/2 inch brass cartridges.

 

[Ridge Runner]

Thanks Hunter4572001.

Are those bullets the longer 458WM/Lott bullets or the shorter 45-70 bullets.

What grain weight charge of H4198 are you using?

My intent, guess I should have said this in my initial post, is to use the shorter Hornady jacketed soft point 45-70 bullets or lead (alloy) bullets, I have to look at the recipe, but I think there around 1500 - 1800 fps. Keeping over 1000 foot pounds of energy at 100 yards.

 

[Altitude sickness]

Can you borrow a crossbow for her. Where are you at. And where are you bear hunting?

 

[Bert01]

Thanks Hunter4572001.

Are those bullets the longer 458WM/Lott bullets or the shorter 45-70 bullets.

What grain weight charge of H4198 are you using?

My intent, guess I should have said this in my initial post, is to use the shorter Hornady jacketed soft point 45-70 bullets or lead (alloy) bullets, I have to look at the recipe, but I think there around 1500 - 1800 fps. Keeping over 1000 foot pounds of energy at 100 yards.

Downloading to <1800 fps should be doable with 4198. In a 458WM weight rifle it should be a very light shooting load. 1600fps is about my limit for 400grain loads in my 7# 45-70 single shot, at least for more than a couple rounds. I can plug it into quickload if you would like to get an idea of where to start.

 

[AZDAVE]

Use a 300-405gr bullet and 45ish gr of AA5744 and you will be at 45/70 load level with much reduced recoil.

 

[mdwest]

400gr bullet over 67gr of IMR 4064 replicates higher end 45-70 ballistics (and recoil) pretty closely... you should get somewhere between 1900-1950 fps from that load..

Another (softer recoil, and less ballistic capability, but should still be enough for a canadian black bear) is in the Speer #13 reloading manual: 26.0 grains of IMR SR 4759 powder behind a 400 grain Speer flat point bullet will give a MV of 1262 fps, and 30.0 grains of IMR SR 4759 behind the same bullet gives a MV of 1445 fps. (IMR SR 4759 is discontinued.. but there might still be some out there somewhere that someone is willing to part with if you look around)..

IMR SR4759 Smokeless Powder 8 lb

Production of IMR powders dates back over 200 years when the company was originally founded by E.I DuPont. Available for use in many reloading...

www.midwayusa.com

 

[Marc Ret]

Why does she not buy a rifle of her own in a more shoulder friendly chambering?

Not trying to diminish what you're attempting to do for her but downloaded .458WM and 3" 12ga slugs don't seem to me to be logical alternatives to someone who balked at shooting a .270. Get her to the range with a .22 and let her work up to something more suitable to her needs.

 

[CJW]

I played around with H4895 under 295 gr Raptors and 300 gr BT's in my 458. Going to the 60% of maximum gave me some hang fires so I increased significantly to 60 gr and had a very fun to shoot 9.5 pound 458 WM but the BT's gave me eratic accuracy. The Raptors are significantly longer so I think that aided in accuracy. I guestimated it to be around 1900 +/- fps. I have also loaded the 295 gr Raptors over 71.5 grains of 2230 for very good accuracy at 100 yds and comfortable recoil. You could probably reduce that load by a few grains and be around 2100 fps.

But like Marc said, maybe even her own rifle fitted to her? Maybe a 7x57 or even a 30-30 with good bullets?

 

[Desperatezulu]

Seems like an overly-complex brainstorm to a fairly simple problem. Getting a gun-shy shooter using a big heavy DG rifle isn't an obvious starting point.

Wouldn't a 308 shooting a 180gr A-Frame be better medicine for both shooter and target?
Maybe there's some kind of calibre restriction for shooting bears that I'm ignorant of.

Big(gish) bores shooting at 1600 ft/s looks like a recipe for lack of penetration.

 

[CBH Australia]

As above the H4895 which is a AR2206H equivalent can be downloaded significantly. ADI Australia who make advise it can be loaded as low as 60% of max load. As @CJW found some issues look into it further but it's potentially an option once you find a reliable load.
Alternatively how high can you load with Trailboss if it's available.

 

[CJW]

Seems like an overly-complex brainstorm to a fairly simple problem. Getting a gun-shy shooter using a big heavy DG rifle isn't an obvious starting point.

Wouldn't a 308 shooting a 180gr A-Frame be better medicine for both shooter and target?
Maybe there's some kind of calibre restriction for shooting bears that I'm ignorant of.

Big(gish) bores shooting at 1600 ft/s looks like a recipe for lack of penetration.

I really don't think it's that off the mark if you want to use what you have. Reduced loads can be pussy cats to shoot and most any load will be accurate enough for tree stand hunting. Just remember to use a bullet that doesn't rely on velocity for performance.

A 308 180 gr load isn't necessarily going to be easy on the shoulder.

A 3" slug isn't where I would start though. Most shotguns are just too light.

 

[Ridge Runner]

Downloading to <1800 fps should be doable with 4198. In a 458WM weight rifle it should be a very light shooting load. 1600fps is about my limit for 400grain loads in my 7# 45-70 single shot, at least for more than a couple rounds. I can plug it into quickload if you would like to get an idea of where to start.

Thanks Bert01, that information would be very helpful and much appreciated.

 

[Bert01]

A 30-30 shooting TSX’s would be hard to beat, but I wouldn’t think twice about using a 300-400 grain .458 bullet at 1400-1600 fps either.

 

[Bert01]

Thanks Bert01, that information would be very helpful and much appreciated.

I’ll look at it when I get off today

 

[Ridge Runner]

I really don't think it's that off the mark if you want to use what you have. Reduced loads can be pussy cats to shoot and most any load will be accurate enough for tree stand hunting. Just remember to use a bullet that doesn't rely on velocity for performance.

A 308 180 gr load isn't necessarily going to be easy on the shoulder.

A 3" slug isn't where I would start though. Most shotguns are just too light.

My niece in law won't be starting with, well not exactly true, the second or third round she'll shoot will be a 3", just so we'll know her limitations are on recoil, confidence, and comfort. She'll be using the Brenneke 2 3/4 inch rifle slugs, IF I can talk her away from wanting to use a rifle; which leaves the only two options: download the 458 WM preferably, or download one of my 30-06's to slightly heavy 308 load.

Only bullet options I have on hand are: 150 PSP, 165 & 168 TSS, 174 FMJ (and/or could be 149 FMJ. It's military surplus ammo) , and Barnes 220 RN solids.

Until we know her recoil threshold then the third option is to purchase her a rifle in a caliber she is comfortable shooting.

In talking with a Hornady rep a while back, seems most Hornady bullets require velocities between 1600 to 2200 fps to function properly. So I'll be going with Hornady Jacketed Soft Points or the alloy bullets with gas checks and a copper base that I have on hand.

 

[Ridge Runner]

I’ll look at it when I get off today

Great. Thanks.

 

[Ridge Runner]

A 30-30 shooting TSX’s would be hard to beat, but I wouldn’t think twice about using a 300-400 grain .458 bullet at 1400-1600 fps either.

I'm know the 30-30 is a good round, but I'm not much of a fan using it on hogs and bears, elk, moose, etc. not when I have an assortment of better calibers that in this case be loaded down and still be more effective, using better bullets. Unless that 30-30 is a bolt action with a box magazine.