Decisions, decisions...Looking for some help!

[gjwardman]

I recently found a hen's tooth - a complete 1903 Steyr receiver with functioning rotary magazine. It accepts 8x56 MS, so, was probably chambered in 6.5MS. I want to build a "new" rifle on it and am waffling between a couple of old classics, like 318 WR or a 333 Jeffery. Am I missing out on anything else?

I'm a self-professed classic caliber nerd and a sucker for old guns. I already have a 8x56 MS, a 8x60 Mag, a 6.5x55 Swede (built of a pre-war FN commercial action), a 257 Roberts (built on a K98 receiver), and a 9.3x62. I reload and have been doing it for decades, so ammo is never a problem!

 

[Shootist43]

Just curious, won't the "functioning rotary magazine" limit your choice of calibers? Do you build your own rifles or commission a "smith" to do it?

 

[gjwardman]

I have a machinist/gunsmith that can contour the magazine rotary based on the case dimensions.
Based on my research, the rotary magazine can be modified slightly, based on the amount of steel there.
The magazine box should be able to accept the cartridge's length without much modification...

 

[318AE]

Congratulations on an interesting find. Both the 318 and 333 have a larger case and rim diameter; the 333 is quite a bit larger. I’m not familiar with re-contouring those magazines to fit larger cartridges. Sounds like the bolt face will need to be enlarged as well. Pretty ambitious undertaking - good luck, and let us know how it goes.

 

[Major Bonkers]

Well, firstly, congratulations.

An action in 8x56 is not that unusual: Holts have a rifle in the calibre coming up for sale in March. In the UK, the calibre is considered obsolete - see the description of the rifle - but prices have been moving up recently, as people have realised that they can keep a functional rifle without the need to go through the rigmarole of police licensing. I should expect this rifle go for double its estimate or more.

The 6.5x54 is a super round and when mated to a Mannlicher-Schoenauer stock makes a superb sporting rifle. I would encourage you to go down this route. However, if you do decide to use it for another calibre (whether .318 or .333) you will need to adjust the magazine spindle.

This chap can sell you any spare parts. Unfortunately, his web-site is in German.

 

[gjwardman]

Well, firstly, congratulations.

An action in 8x56 is not that unusual: Holts have a rifle in the calibre coming up for sale in March. In the UK, the calibre is considered obsolete - see the description of the rifle - but prices have been moving up recently, as people have realised that they can keep a functional rifle without the need to go through the rigmarole of police licensing. I should expect this rifle go for double its estimate or more.

The 6.5x54 is a super round and when mated to a Mannlicher-Schoenauer stock makes a superb sporting rifle. I would encourage you to go down this route. However, if you do decide to use it for another calibre (whether .318 or .333) you will need to adjust the magazine spindle.

This chap can sell you any spare parts. Unfortunately, his web-site is in German.

good point! Thanks for the site...I'll have to reach out to them!
I may have to rethink my decision to modify!

 

[gjwardman]

Congratulations on an interesting find. Both the 318 and 333 have a larger case and rim diameter; the 333 is quite a bit larger. I’m not familiar with re-contouring those magazines to fit larger cartridges. Sounds like the bolt face will need to be enlarged as well. Pretty ambitious undertaking - good luck, and let us know how it goes.

LOL...currently have a line of a Mauser 98 action and was thinking that may be the best platform for a 318 or 333.

 

[Monsai52]

A bigger problem than the magazine spindle is overall cartridge length. The construction of the magazine limits you to cartridges basically the same length as the 6.5 x 54 (3.02") or just slightly longer like 7x57 / 275 Rigby. When Styer decided to build M-S rifles for longer cartridges like 30-06, they needed to developed their longer action. So 318 WR or 333 Jeffrey will be too long to fit in the magazine.

Best regards,

 

[nztimb]

Giday gjwardman and welcome to the A H forums.

 

[gjwardman]

A bigger problem than the magazine spindle is overall cartridge length. The construction of the magazine limits you to cartridges basically the same length as the 6.5 x 54 (3.02") or just slightly longer like 7x57 / 275 Rigby. When Styer decided to build M-S rifles for longer cartridges like 30-06, they needed to developed their longer action. So 318 WR or 333 Jeffrey will be too long to fit in the magazine.

Best regards,

I was thinking a "standard sized magazine"...forgot that wasn't something really don unitl later...especially in a time of proprietary rounds.

 

[Nyati]

 

[Monsai52]

I was thinking a "standard sized magazine"...forgot that wasn't something really don unitl later...especially in a time of proprietary rounds.

Another possible "classic caliber" choice for you could be the 9.5x57 Mannlicher-Schoenauer aka 375 Rimless Nitro Express 2-1/4.

Also, I'm sure 8x56 M-S magazines are like hens teeth, and could be sold for a pretty penny to someone looking for one. So I suggest not modifying it, and find a 6.5x54 M-S magazine to rework for your new caliber. The 6.5x54 magazines used in the Greek 1903/14 rifles are exactly the same as those used in the sporting rifles, so there are a lot more of those around.

BTW, if you're looking to go with a larger caliber, not only will the spindle need to be modified, but also the base of the magazine will need to be machined to allow for the larger diameter bullets and cases.

Best regards,

 

[gjwardman]

Another possible "classic caliber" choice for you could be the 9.5x57 Mannlicher-Schoenauer aka 375 Rimless Nitro Express 2-1/4.

Also, I'm sure 8x56 M-S magazines are like hens teeth, and could be sold for a pretty penny to someone looking for one. So I suggest not modifying it, and find a 6.5x54 M-S magazine to rework for your new caliber. The 6.5x54 magazines used in the Greek 1903/14 rifles are exactly the same as those used in the sporting rifles, so there are a lot more of those around.

BTW, if you're looking to go with a larger caliber, not only will the spindle need to be modified, but also the base of the magazine will need to be machined to allow for the larger diameter bullets and cases.

Best regards,

That would be a GREAT choice. I saw one on Gunbroker for $1200 last year and didn't bid on it...I kick myself for that! It sold for $1250.

 

[Brian Rothhammer]

Well, firstly, congratulations.

An action in 8x56 is not that unusual: ...

...The 6.5x54 is a super round and when mated to a Mannlicher-Schoenauer stock

Of MS chambered for the proprietary cartridges, the M1905 (9X56) is the least commonly encountered. The M1903 is by far the most common, followed by M1908 (8X56), M1910 (9,5X57) and M1905. M1924 ('Sequoia') were chambered for the 'U.S. Cartridge of 1906' (.30-'06) and thereafter MS were offered in a variety of chamberings.

A "Mannlicher Schoenauer stock" could be stutzen (fullstocked carbine), half stocked, or a half stocked Take Down Model in the pre - WW2 years. In 1954 the Monte Carlo (MC) stocks were also offered and soon after the MCA (Monte Carlo Amerikanische) added to the lineup. Both MC and MCA were available as stutzen or half stocked, single or double set trigger.

1939 Stoeger:

MC, MCA:

 

[gjwardman]

Of MS chambered for the proprietary cartridges, the M1905 (9X56) is the least commonly encountered. The M1903 is by far the most common, followed by M1908 (8X56), M1910 (9,5X57) and M1905. M1924 ('Sequoia') were chambered for the 'U.S. Cartridge of 1906' (.30-'06) and thereafter MS were offered in a variety of chamberings.

View attachment 509290

A "Mannlicher Schoenauer stock" could be stutzen (fullstocked carbine), half stocked, or a half stocked Take Down Model in the pre - WW2 years. In 1954 the Monte Carlo (MC) stocks were also offered and soon after the MCA (Monte Carlo Amerikanische) added to the lineup. Both MC and MCA were available as stutzen or half stocked, single or double set trigger.

1939 Stoeger:
View attachment 509291

MC, MCA:
View attachment 509292
View attachment 509293

Thanks for the note. 9x56 MS would be another classic caliber. Now, I just need to get it done and get it into action somewhere.

 

[Brian Rothhammer]

A bigger problem than the magazine spindle is overall cartridge length. The construction of the magazine limits you to cartridges basically the same length as the 6.5 x 54 (3.02") or just slightly longer like 7x57 / 275 Rigby. When Styer decided to build M-S rifles for longer cartridges like 30-06, they needed to developed their longer action. So 318 WR or 333 Jeffrey will be too long to fit in the magazine.

Best regards,

Quite right. Width is also a factor.

The original prototype and pre production MS (M1900) were all 6.5X54 as were all military MS ('Greek' Y1903 and variants) and M1903.

As production of Y1903 and M1903 commenced in 1905, another proprietary cartridge was added (9X56 - M1905) which had its own fitted Schoenauer magazine. M1908 (8X56) was later added, as was M1910 (9.5X57), both with their own fitted mag.

Pre M1924 MS are very particular in their feeding habits. The spool and magazine housing are machined in such a manner and to precise tolerances that cartridges act as pin bearings in a race. If the cartridges are constructed exactly to original specifications they will feed flawlessly and reliably, moreso than any other magazine system. If they are slightly long or short they may jam.


Pre WW2 MS being loaded with 'stripper clip':

The 'action' was lengthened for the M1924 so it would accept the 'U.S. Cartridge of 1906' (.30-'06). The magazines of M1924 and later MS also had a 'guide ring' added to allow for greater flexibility of cartridge selection.

Schoenauer Magazines M1903, M1910, M1924, 'M1925' ('High Velocity' per Stoeger), 8X60 (from M1952):

During the 1950s a 'Magnum' line was introduced:

 

[Brian Rothhammer]

good point! Thanks for the site...I'll have to reach out to them!
I may have to rethink my decision to modify!

If the barrel / chamber is unmodified your M1903 is a 6.5X54MS and the wisest course of action (unless you really want a different chambering and are willing to finance a lot of precision machining) would be to keep it as 6.5X54.

 

[Brian Rothhammer]

LOL...currently have a line of a Mauser 98 action and was thinking that may be the best platform for a 318 or 333.

From Stoeger, 1939:

 

[Brian Rothhammer]

I was thinking a "standard sized magazine"...forgot that wasn't something really don unitl later...especially in a time of proprietary rounds.

The closest thing to a 'standard' MS magazine would be the post WW2 non Magnum models with their guide rings. They were still, however, rather closely tailored to particular cartridge dimensions.

 

[Brian Rothhammer]

Another possible "classic caliber" choice for you could be the 9.5x57 Mannlicher-Schoenauer aka 375 Rimless Nitro Express 2-1/4.

Also, I'm sure 8x56 M-S magazines are like hens teeth, and could be sold for a pretty penny to someone looking for one. So I suggest not modifying it, and find a 6.5x54 M-S magazine to rework for your new caliber. The 6.5x54 magazines used in the Greek 1903/14 rifles are exactly the same as those used in the sporting rifles, so there are a lot more of those around.

BTW, if you're looking to go with a larger caliber, not only will the spindle need to be modified, but also the base of the magazine will need to be machined to allow for the larger diameter bullets and cases.

Best regards,

Correct on all counts, and you know I'm fond of the 9.5X57 / .375 Nitro Express Rimless.

The 'Greek' military MS, all chambered for 6.5X54MS, were Y1903, Y1903/14, Y1903/14/27 (Breda) and 'System 1930'.