Deciding on Which Rifle to Use

[intj]

As I mentioned in my intro thread, It's time for me to get serious about hunting Africa, with the main goal being buffalo. This will be a couple year process, and for me the first step is selecting the rifle.

I have owned three 416 Remingtons. One built on a Rem 700, one built in a CZ 550 Safari American, and my current one is a M-70 classic. It was originally a 375 HH and I had factory 416 barrel installed. I have shot the 416s the most.

I had a Sabatti double in a 450 NE for a while. I sent it to Aaron Little to be re-regulated and the stocked reworked. I swear I worked harder to get that to shoot a sub 2" 4-shot group at 50 yds than I have to get my LRBR heavy gun to shoot 4" groups at 1000 yds. I sold that rifle to help fund my lathe and milling machine about 5 years ago.

I also currently have a CZ 550 Safari in 458 Lott that I had Wayne at AHR go over. I haven't shot that one.

I suppose my first choice would be another double, but I would rather spend the funds for that on trophy fees. They also aren't as comfortable for me to shoot. So that leaves the M-70 or the CZ.

I like the M-70 better. I can work the bolt better with the rifle shouldered, though I really should shorten the pull a 1/2" to 13". Yes, that puts the scope closer to my face, but maybe I can slide it forward a bit.

I will also need to chamber my own barrel for this rifle. I just can't see using a rifle that I didn't build myself on the hunt of a lifetime. I now know how to build very accurate rifles and make them feed well.

I do like the idea of an exhibition grade black walnut stock, but that probably requires the lug on the barrel and that adds a bunch of complexity to the build. The stock I like best is my McMillan mag fill Super Grade stock. It's not Africa classic but it would be more durable.

As to cartridge, I have a lot of 416 Rem brass and 350 TTSX bullets. I also have a fair amount of .458 TSX 450 grainers, but I am thinking the 416 is a better choice for a buffalo/plains game hunt. I think the 416 is a little easier to load for with its bottle-necked case, and cases with minimal taper and sharper shoulder handle pressure and extract better.

Not really a wrong choice, I just have to decide.....

 

[Inline6]

Took a 416REM, 375h&h and 300WM my first trip. 416REM was not as impressive as I was hoping to be honest. I now have a 458Lott that loves 450TSX.

If you want to take only one rifle the 416REM makes the most sense. 350s will work on buff most want to see 400gr +.

For plains game I would consider bringing a different rifle for that job myself. Why limit yourself, a good deer/elk rifle will take care of your needs in that department.

 

[mdwest]

I have shot the 416s the most.

I like the M-70 better.

The stock I like best is my McMillan mag fill Super Grade stock. It's not Africa classic but it would be more durable.

As to cartridge, I have a lot of 416 Rem brass and 350 TTSX bullets. I also have a fair amount of .458 TSX 450 grainers, but I am thinking the 416 is a better choice for a buffalo/plains game hunt. I think the 416 is a little easier to load for with its bottle-necked case, and cases with minimal taper and sharper shoulder handle pressure and extract better.

I think you have largely already answered your own question...

M70 with the mcmillian stock chambered in 416 Rem would make an outstanding buffalo rifle... I dont think any PH on the African continent would tell you otherwise..

I'd start looking for an M70 thats already chambered in 416 Rem right away.. they exist, but arent the easiest thing to come by.. you might get lucky and find one within a matter of days... or it might take you several months to find one at a reasonable price.. and you cant order the stock until you have the rifle in hand (different stocks for a 2 piece bottom metal M70 vs 1 piece bottom metal M70... and Pre 64 M70's take a slightly different stock than a post 64, etc etc.... )..

 

[mdwest]

For plains game I would consider bringing a different rifle for that job myself. Why limit yourself, a good deer/elk rifle will take care of your needs in that department.

I completely agree...

If you were taking a 375, a single rifle might work well for you... but... a 416 is going to be a little more limited for PG...

Taking 2 rifles is just as easy/simple as taking one... (I typically take a 375 and a 308... the 375 gets deployed on DG and/or large PG.. and the 308 gets used on everything else)..

 

[intj]

I think you have largely already answered your own question...

M70 with the mcmillian stock chambered in 416 Rem would make an outstanding buffalo rifle... I dont think any PH on the African continent would tell you otherwise..

I'd start looking for an M70 thats already chambered in 416 Rem right away.. they exist, but arent the easiest thing to come by.. you might get lucky and find one within a matter of days... or it might take you several months to find one at a reasonable price.. and you cant order the stock until you have the rifle in hand (different stocks for a 2 piece bottom metal M70 vs 1 piece bottom metal M70... and Pre 64 M70's take a slightly different stock than a post 64, etc etc.... )..

I have one already. I just want to put a barrel on it that I chambered myself.

 

[intj]

I have been assuming that the 416 Rem works as well as the Lott for a client rifle. Is that wrong?

I could easily bring a 338 something along with the buffalo rifle. I currently have a 33-28 Nosler that shoots 338 RUM velocities. I just ran a 33 Nosler reamer in another .120". I could also build a 338 RUM +P, which I will probably do anyway.

How do PHs feel about brakes PG rifles? I assume brakes on DG rifles are still a bad idea?

 

[Inline6]

I have one already. I just want to put a barrel on it that I chambered myself.

Are you going to put irons on it too? I have chambered barrels myself. I have never added irons to any of my barrel I have worked on.

 

[fourfive8]

I think you have answered your own question. I have had three 375 HH bolt guns- still have two. I have had two 416 Rem Mag bolt guns- still have one. I have one 458 Watts bolt gun.

After shooting or hunting all those, some for both PG and DG… the one I would take tomorrow no doubt, no question, no hesitation for buffalo, or PG for that matter, would be the 416 Rem Mag bolt gun. It is a late New Haven Win M70. The scope is no frills Leupold with plenty of eye relief and it’s mounted forward enough to prevent any possibility of scope eyebrow. No worries means no trigger jerking flinch The scope mounts are simple dual dovetails and as tough a system as exists. I did a full length bedding job with pillars myself. I load primarily 400 gr TSXs or A-Frames to about 2350 fps with Varget powder. I am 100% confident in the effectiveness and reliability of that rifle and ammo for buffalo and PG at reasonable distances. Minimal meat/hide damage on PG down to impala. Shot my best impala with that combo- 3/4” inch hole entry to exit without mess. I’m sure would work equally well for smaller PG. Also killed a massive eland bull with that combo and did not feel over- gunned.

 

[Inline6]

I have been assuming that the 416 Rem works as well as the Lott for a client rifle. Is that wrong?

I could easily bring a 338 something along with the buffalo rifle. I currently have a 33-28 Nosler that shoots 338 RUM velocities. I just ran a 33 Nosler reamer in another .120". I could also build a 338 RUM +P, which I will probably do anyway.

How do PHs feel about brakes PG rifles? I assume brakes on DG rifles are still a bad idea?

They don't like brakes, they won't tell you no. They want their clients happy. The truth is they rather see you take less rifle with no brake.

 

[intj]

Are you going to put irons on it too? I have chambered barrels myself. I have never added irons to any of my barrel I have worked on.

Are irons really needed anymore? I was thinking a pair of scopes in Leupold QRW mounts, both sighted in?

 

[intj]

They don't like brakes, they won't tell you no. They want their clients happy. The truth is they rather see you take less rifle with no brake.

I am assuming the long range craze has also crept into plains game, which usually means shooting prone. I have no issue with 50-70 ft lbs of recoil when seated at a bench, standing or kneeling; but I won't shoot anything with remotely that much recoil when prone. Then again, PG will only be my secondary consideration.

 

[Inline6]

I have been assuming that the 416 Rem works as well as the Lott for a client rifle. Is that wrong?

At the end of the day a 416REM 400gr AFrame going 2400fps is 5115 ftlb of energy vs a 458Lott with a 450gr TSX going 2350fps is 5517ftlb of energy. A buff is not going to care about the 400ftlb of difference. Whichever fits you best and you like the most take.

 

[Inline6]

Are irons really needed anymore? I was thinking a pair of scopes in Leupold QRW mounts, both sighted in?

Depending on who you ask. An RDS and a LPVO and you are set for almost anything. Some people must have irons, some it doesn't matter one way or the other.

 

[mdwest]

Are irons really needed anymore? I was thinking a pair of scopes in Leupold QRW mounts, both sighted in?

I dont know that they are an absolute must... but I think most would tell you that its far better to have and not need, than to need and not have...

DG hunting is done up close... if youre dealing with an animal that gets wounded and runs into the bush, rapid sight acquisition becomes far more important than an absolute precision shot if/when that buff springs out on you at full charge at a distance of 50 meters or less..

Thats why most would also recommend a LPVO with a true 1x capability in a quality QD set of rings as well.. For your initial shot you might find yourself so close that more field of view is more valuable than more magnification..

 

[intj]

At the end of the day a 416REM 400gr AFrame going 2400fps is 5115 ftlb of energy vs a 458Lott with a 450gr TSX going 2350fps is 5517ftlb of energy. A buff is not going to care about the 400ftlb of difference. Whichever fits you best and you like the most take.

I thought that the 350 TTSX was the way to go for buffalo? Probably 2600 fps? All the reports I have read on them have been good. Thoughts?

 

[mdwest]

350 TSX will get the job done... but I think most would recommend 400 gr in a 416... Penetration is everything with a buff.. the additional BC and weight that the 400gr projectile will give you will be an advantage.. Speed at the distances you'll be shooting really doesnt matter as much as long as the projectile is traveling fast enough to expand (I think the TSX reliably expands at speeds of 2100 FPS and faster? although Barnes advertises that its reliable down to 1800 FPS)..

I shoot a lot of 350 gr through my 416 Taylor.. mostly for range practice.. the lower recoil is appreciated when knocking off 10-20 shots in a session.. but for actual hunting I stick to 400gr...

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Irons are for backup in case your scope goes wonky. If you take a backup scope, you're covered as well. Brand new Nikon on my 06 went kaput after second day of my first trip. Factory fixed it and it's been fine since. I wound up borrowing a gun to finish the trip. Only a kudu was left on the list.

I can kill animals on the run just fine with scope turned down to 3x. Shot this buff through both lungs on the fly at 60 yards with borrowed 375 wearing Leopold scope also at 3x. Hit him exactly where expected.

Incidentally, I believe it was with 250 gr copper bullet. I just weighed it again - 248 gr on the scale.

Appears to be nearly complete retention. Though I've only shot it five times, that CZ rifle in that caliber and bullet weight was surprisingly comfortable to shoot. And lethal. Shot my first buff with it too. Through the heart and it didn't go twenty yards before tipping over.

 

[Inline6]

I thought that the 350 TTSX was the way to go for buffalo? Probably 2600 fps? All the reports I have read on them have been good. Thoughts?

Will it work, yes. That bullet has a SD of .289. Most try to get to the SD of .3+.

It is funny we have 3 camps on this subject. 1 light and fast (speed kills, 2 traditional weight for caliber, and 3 heavy for caliber. For myself I like to run through the numbers. If it make sense and the rifle likes them I run them. A 350gr going 2600 sounds good on paper should be over 5300ftlb of energy. The rub will be if it hits an obstruction between you and your target will the lighter faster round handle it better than say a 450gr going 2200fps? I can't answer that question. I have read the arguments both ways have not tried it to know for sure.

 

[BourbonTrail]

My 416 Rem Super Express is the only gun I have taken to Africa. It works well for PG, although it makes big exit holes on the small stuff if you use expanding bullets. I would take a smaller PG Rifle (308 or 338) if you plan to bag 10 animals or shoot further than 250yds. Nosler Partitions work good on the small stuff, but A Frames is a better medicine for Buffalo. I didn’t use my irons, but I do appreciate having them.

Shooting prone is only going to happen on mountainous properties. Otherwise, visibility from prone is garbage. Shooting sticks are still the order of the day.

 

[intj]

350 TSX will get the job done... but I think most would recommend 400 gr in a 416... Penetration is everything with a buff.. the additional BC and weight that the 400gr projectile will give you will be an advantage.. Speed at the distances you'll be shooting really doesnt matter as much as long as the projectile is traveling fast enough to expand (I think the TSX reliably expands at speeds of 2100 FPS and faster? although Barnes advertises that its reliable down to 1800 FPS)..

I shoot a lot of 350 gr through my 416 Taylor.. mostly for range practice.. the lower recoil is appreciated when knocking off 10-20 shots in a session.. but for actual hunting I stick to 400gr...

The world has definitely changed when I started toying with the 416s 20 years ago. Now I thought the argument for the 350 TSX and TTSX over a 400 grain controlled expansion bullet was the mono retained weight much better, so although it starts out with less weigh on impact it ends up with more weight at the end and this penetrates better?

I thought the concern with the 350 Barnes was actually over penetration on broadside shots on a buff?

It strikes me that if I really should be shooting a 400 grainer in a 416, then I might as well shoot the 450 in the Lott and bring a light rifle for plains game.