Death of Zimbabwe’s Best-Loved Lion Ignites Debate on Sport Hunting

[JGRaider]

I too saw a pangolin on my Namibia hunt in 2014. Came right up to me and ate the bugs off of my boots, and the tracker's boots. I took pics of the ordeal! I showed them to the property owner and he said he'd seen exactly 2 in 25 years.

 

[Vevew]

Vevew it was not about changing the subject, it's about making you realize there are other animals that needs more protiction than a pet Lion.

I already know that. There are only 60 or so Amur Leopards left in the wild. (By the way, I donate money regularly to ALTA conservation).
This thread just happens to be about the African lion.

I also pointed out that the lion is a threatened species, and provided a source.

 

[rinehart0050]

Well this doesn't help at all:

'"If, as has been reported, this dentist and his guides lured Cecil out of the park with food so as to shoot him on private property ... he needs to be extradited, charged, and, preferably, hanged," People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals said in a statement Wednesday. The statement, emailed to The Associated Press, came from Ingrid Newkirk, president of the animal rights organization.' from article.

 

[LivingTheDream]

I think using the IUCN, might prove your point as it being threatened but you lose the overall war here. It mentions them as gaining population in the Southern part of Africa but in Western Africa is where the population is hurting. If you look at the CITIES data posted there are few or hardly any lions or sports hunted lion parts coming out of these countries. Where the lions are hurting is where hunting dollars are not going. IUCN even mentions hunting as a proper management tool. So if you can accept what IUCN says about them being threatened, can you accept what they say about hunting as a management tool for the greater good of lions? If you choose to cherry pick the report, then this conversation is over as we have come to a complete impasse.

 

[Randal]

Just a technical question. Assuming if you had a legal permit on the farm land near a national park and baiting is allowed, would it still be illegal to lure and kill a collared animal? I don't see any rules against it. Informed discussion/comments needed. ^_^

 

[S.W. Smith]

I think using the IUCN, might prove your point as it being threatened but you lose the overall war here. It mentions them as gaining population in the Southern part of Africa but in Western Africa is where the population is hurting. If you look at the CITIES data posted there are few or hardly any lions or sports hunted lion parts coming out of these countries. Where the lions are hurting is where hunting dollars are not going. IUCN even mentions hunting as a proper management tool. So if you can accept what IUCN says about them being threatened, can you accept what they say about hunting as a management tool for the greater good of lions? If you choose to cherry pick the report, then this conversation is over as we have come to a complete impasse.

Exactly. According to the IUCN list black rhinos are critically endangered, but their conservation status in Namibia is either near threatened or vulnerable, not endangered.

 

[Pheroze]

Is the real story here that Zimbabwe, a country plagued with many political and economic challenges, has an effective Wildlife management department that has identified and charged individuals implicated in wrong doing? Isn't that a sign of a successful system?

 

[slad68]

Randal.

If you have a farm or a concession block or you have the hunting rights on paper from someone who ownes a farm or concession block bordering a National park and you have a permit issued to hunt a Lion on the said farm or concession. The hunt is legal. If you shoot a Lion with a color around its neck and there is no agreement not to shoot such a Lion the hunt is legal.
If your permit allows you to bait the animal the hunt is legal. If your permit allows you to use a spotlight the hunt is legal.

It all depends what the coditions of the hunt is and that is usually printed on the back of the permit.

I am referring to South Africa and Limpopo in particular.

 

[Vevew]

So if you can accept what IUCN says about them being threatened, can you accept what they say about hunting as a management tool for the greater good of lions? If you choose to cherry pick the report, then this conversation is over as we have come to a complete impasse.

Please read the reply #66.

What I later started to argue about was the moral issue (Reply #222). I know arguing about morals is pointless, but I just wanted to jump in again when someone else brought it up.

Sure, if the money from the hunt goes to fund conservation, then that's great. But the people who don't like trophy hunting will continue to see trophy hunters as morally bankrupt, because of the reason why hunters spend that money. Please read the reply #222 to understand where I'm coming from in the previous sentence.

 

[Wheels]

Just a technical question. Assuming if you had a legal permit on the farm land near a national park and baiting is allowed, would it still be illegal to lure and kill a collared animal? I don't see any rules against it. Informed discussion/comments needed. ^_^

Randal, the way you wrote the statement it would probably be legal.

In this case the property owner Ndoluvu (sp) didn't have a lion permit from what I have read.

 

[Hogpatrol]

 

[Adrian]

I wonder if the anti hunters in our midst are as vocal when it comes to condemning the displacement, death, poverty and homelessness of ordinary Zimbabweans or do they value the life of an animal more highly than that of their fellow human beings?

If life is so important and killing unjustifiable, why are they, anti hunters here trolling instead of fighting for human rights?

 

[Randal]

Randal.

If you have a farm or a concession block or you have the hunting rights on paper from someone who ownes a farm or concession block bordering a National park and you have a permit issued to hunt a Lion on the said farm or concession. The hunt is legal. If you shoot a Lion with a color around its neck and there is no agreement not to shoot such a Lion the hunt is legal.
If your permit allows you to bait the animal the hunt is legal. If your permit allows you to use a spotlight the hunt is legal.

It all depends what the coditions of the hunt is and that is usually printed on the back of the permit.

I am referring to South Africa and Limpopo in particular.

Thanks for the reply. As a potential future big five customer (had a great plains game hunt with Bos En Dal), this kind of incident scares me. Palmer's defense is plausible. I would probably demand to see all the paperwork and permit before securing a big hunt like this.

Thanks again for the discussion.

 

[RickB]

Well, after reading this entire thread all morning amid those bothersome emails and phone calls from that stupid place called work!! I feel the overall discussion has gone well.

@Vevew , you seem to have listened to the points of most and changed your tone on ethical hunting and I applaud you for that. As with most animals (myself included). We want to do whatever it takes to keep these amazing creatures around as long as possible. We should not argue over what animals we try to save and promote. But as long as we are doing something. One may have a different approach as to how it should happen but the bottom line is we all want to see these animals around forever.

As to this topic. The entire story must first come out. Permit no permit seems to be the only thing that will either hang the folks or set them free. No permit, I put them in the realm of worthless human beings. What I would do with worthless human beings is for another topic... But knowing the media. They post pictures of the animal in its prime. In all of his glory. They will use all the wrong terms like hunter in place of poacher. It fits their bill, makes for a better story. The truth will come out and we will be talking about the Kardashian's soon enough!

I don't have a 100% fix to what will save the lion or any other animal in this world. No one does. But we know what works with what options we are given. Look across the world at animals that hunters have saved and how it was done. The white tailed deer is probably the number one example as to how hunters have saved an animal from the brink of extinction. They are to the extream now of over population. They are hurting other animals because they are doing so well. On the other hand, look at areas that have eliminated hunting. The animals are on their way out. The choice seems clear to me...

 

[Black Lechwe]

It is interesting reading the discussion on this issue on one of the large South African hunting forums (**NOT**PERMITTED**.co.za). There is a lot more condemnation coming from hunters, possibly because we're more 'local' and know that there most definitely are questionable operators out there, especially in a broken country like Zimbabwe (how else do businesses survive there?).

The Zim Wildlife Dept. is investigating. This should be fairly credible, unless someone with serious political connections was involved. I think Zim is one of the few countries that takes a very strong pro-hunting stance, and also is quite effective at managing it's parks and wildlife populations. Therefore they probably realise that they stand to lose business from gaining a bad reputation. Not because of the antis, but from the hunters themselves not wanting to expose themselves to incidents like this. If it turns out there was foul play, I hope the hunting fraternity will come out strongly against this incident. It has done a huge amount of damage to our credibility already.

 

[slad68]

Randal that is a good point. All paperwork must be signed before the hunt take place. If you don't sign the permit before you go out to hunt the hunt is illegal as well.

So always insist on seeing the permit and sign it while doing so.

 

[Vevew]

do they value the life of an animal more highly than that of their fellow human beings?
If life is so important and killing unjustifiable, why are they, anti hunters here trolling instead of fighting for human rights?

Are you saying that everyone should support the moral absolutism that says "a human's life is intrinsically more valuable than an animal's life"? I'd like to hear some objective evidence on why that is true.

I can imagine a situation where I'd save an animal's life over a human's life. I remember this news. I value the lives of the last remaining Amur leopards more than I value the life of the poacher mentioned in the news; Simply because the species is so critically endangered. You are free to judge me, but that is my honest opinion until someone can prove me why the moral absolutism is a good thing.

So, do I value the life of an animal more highly than that of my fellow human beings? It all depends on the situation, the specific animal and the specific human. I don't like absolute morality.

 

[Adrian]

Funnily enough, most hunters would value the life of a leopard over a poacher who are the scourge of what we as hunters and conservationists stand for.

What I find sad is the world is outraged over the death of an old lion but not the plight of thousands of Zimbabweans.

Puts into perspective how screwed up society is really and how influenced we are by what the media feed us.

 

[Wheels]

Thanks for the reply. As a potential future big five customer (had a great plains game hunt with Bos En Dal), this kind of incident scares me. Palmer's defense is plausible. I would probably demand to see all the paperwork and permit before securing a big hunt like this.

Thanks again for the discussion.

We would love to hear about your hunt with Gerrit if you have time to post it.

 

[TokkieM]

@lbgsafaris Bossie according to the tracker it was not a Pangolin,it was a Raaaaaaaatel Never seen a big man move so fast or so many guns get shouldered so quickly