Bullet yaw in this Youtube video

Nhoro

AH elite
Joined
Sep 16, 2014
Messages
1,029
Reaction score
1,980
Location
Harare,Zimbabwe
Media
29
Member of
Cleveland Gun Club
Hunted
Zimbabwe
Hi all, just watched this video posted by Garand Thumb on YouTube. Pretty amazed at how much the bullet was beginning to yaw and maybe tumble after a fairly short trip through ballistics gel and plastic bones.

 
Not surprising. The bullet is obviously a blunt solid and very long. Overly long bullets tend to yaw after impact if they retain shape. What was interesting to me is the bullet trajectory seemed to maintain relatively on track through the target and only seemed to significantly yaw or tumble after exiting. I didn't find the exit wounds to be particularly large. It would have been more interesting if he'd tested a variety of bullets.
 
Interesting indeed, these appear to be the Barnes banded flatnose solids. At 10:24 the bullet can be seen yawing well before exit.
 
Bullets in flight do NOT stabilize fully for 10, 20, and sometimes over 100 yards!
The distance depends on velocity, bullet weight and length, barrel twist, and probably other factors.

Chances are those shots at the ballistic dummy were at 10 yards or less and the subject bullets had not fully stabilized. Any bullet with pitch and yaw hitting a more dense medium that the air it was traveling through will probably become more unstable. Remember, bullets are spinning at high RPM.

458 Win twist rate: 1 in 14"
Velocity: 2150 fps
RPM: 110,571

1741207769035.png
 
Last edited:
Not sure I agree with the bullet stabilization theory. If its not stable as it exits the muzzle, not sure its going to magically stabilize further downrange. Maybe I am wrong on that point. Regardless, the ranges at which the video was showing is consistent with close range DG shots on buff and elephant.
 
Hornady had an interesting podcast on bullet stabilization I just finished up. Certainly not as definitive and concise as I would have preferred, but very informative. I believe it was called “Let’s Talk Twist Rate”
 
Ballistics is a complex subject that is often misunderstood, a basic concept is (as explained to me by a ballastician ) is a bullet leaves the barrel unstable, think of all the forces acting against it, and enters the supersonic stage, and at a certain point/distance it settles down as it overcomes the push and spin forces and stabilises (goes to sleep) then at another point/distance it exits the supersonic phase and becomes unstable again. The distances vary depending on exit speed, temperature, etc and bullet weight, it’s coefficient and several other factors, depending on the point in its flight is how it reacts when it meets an obstacle
Simple……….
Gumpy
 
Hi all, just watched this video posted by Garand Thumb on YouTube. Pretty amazed at how much the bullet was beginning to yaw and maybe tumble after a fairly short trip through ballistics gel and plastic bones.

Bullets in flight do NOT stabilize fully for 10, 20, and sometimes over 100 yards!
The distance depends on velocity, bullet weight and length, barrel twist, and probably other factors.
Mark is correct on this point, a bullet is not 100% stable as it leaves the muzzle, it takes some distance for it to become fully stable, depending on the factors that Mark listed. With the big bore solids in .458 caliber, a faster twist rate helps with this, but still is not fully stable until some point after exit.

There is absolutely zero science in this little fun video. Just two monkeys having fun is all. There is no mention that I saw of the bullet or bullet design. Obviously this chap is not a hand loader, or serious shooter, and I am sure that is a Factory purchased piece of Ammo. I don't think he even mentions a difference between solid and expanding, his little play time would have been even more entertaining had he chosen an expanding bullet to play with....... You would have still seen some stability issues even then however.

Another part of the equation here is the meplat size of that solid. Meplat size is the driving force behind stability "Once Terminal Penetration begins" in any aqueous material or tissue. Once a Solid starts terminal penetration, it is no longer rear end drive, it becomes fully front end drive, the front "Steers" the bullet, it will either tumble, go off course, or drive completely straight totally dependent upon the size of the meplat. The magic number for Solid Stability during terminal penetration is 65% Meplat of caliber. It the meplat size is less than 65% of the bullets caliber, then it cannot be stable in aqueous material or tissue. Other Factors can assist and increase incrementally the stability of lesser designs, but no matter what, at some point, it will go unstable.

Someone said this was a Barnes Flat Nose Solid....... I don't believe so, it looked more like possibly a Nosler profile or something similar, the meplat looks small, I would guess somewhere around 50%-55% of caliber. A Barnes FN Solid is 65% meplat.

Another factor that falls in favor of Marks comments, all his shots at the BGel is less than 10 feet. I suppose he was afraid he would miss, not being used to Big Bore Shooting........ His Gut Shot, I think the last one, is about 3-4 inches from target.

You guys need to take this for what it is, Two Monkeys playing with guns....... that is about the extent of it.......... I would not take away too much from this play time.

If you like, I can post once again the 8 Factors Of Solid Terminal Penetration...............All of which were tested extensively and proven through real science and 1000s on top of 1000s of rounds tested over many calibers and cartridges, velocities and designs...........
 
Regardless of the non- scientific nature of the video, I was surprised by the lack of stability after maybe 6 inches of penetration through soft gelatin and plastic. Nothing like an elephant skull. And I observed the bullet was more stable on entry and noticeably yawning and wobbling on exit. So even if it was not stable yet, it got worse travelling through the dummy.Nothing like the supposed straight line penetration we are supposed to see. I would love to see this done with a variety of bullets.

Close range shots are where I want to see deep penetration, most DG shots are going to be around 50 m or so but life saving shots are probably closer. Especially if an unwounded elephant cow is on your case. National Parks are not going to buy a 50 m self defense shot. More like 10 m.
 
I was definitely surprised. I don't know if the plastic "bones" cause a different reaction than natural bone, but that is not confidence inspiring. As Nhoro said, up close is where straight line penetration is crucial. It did seem to track nice and straight through the gel block however.
 
Regardless of the non- scientific nature of the video, I was surprised by the lack of stability after maybe 6 inches of penetration through soft gelatin and plastic. Nothing like an elephant skull. And I observed the bullet was more stable on entry and noticeably yawning and wobbling on exit. So even if it was not stable yet, it got worse travelling through the dummy.Nothing like the supposed straight line penetration we are supposed to see. I would love to see this done with a variety of bullets.

Close range shots are where I want to see deep penetration, most DG shots are going to be around 50 m or so but life saving shots are probably closer. Especially if an unwounded elephant cow is on your case. National Parks are not going to buy a 50 m self defense shot. More like 10 m.

Now, whether you realize it or not, you're really entering Michael's territory of experience. I would suggest you poke around his website by first starting here:


My own little addition to this thread regarding stabilization of the bullet. As was explained to me, when the round is fired, the bullet never engages the lands of the rifle in perfect alignment. It is ever so slightly cocked up, down, left or right. Once this has happened the bullet will continue traveling down the barrel similar to when a football has been thrown without a perfect spiral.

The bullet simply cannot get out of this wobble inside the barrel because the lands have essentially grabbed and hold onto the bullet in this cocked state. The bullet will continue to wobble until it exits the barrel and there isn't anything to oppose the bullet settling in to a nice wobble free twist as it flies down range.
 
There are 8 Absolute Known Factors for Solid Penetration and are as follows in Order of Importance.....

#1 Meplat Percentage of Caliber

Meplats that attain 65% Meplat of Caliber are terminally stable.... Above 70% Meplat bullets remain stable, however depth of penetration begins to decrease with every step up in meplat size. 70% Meplat or larger does increase trauma to, and destruction of tissue. 70% Meplats start to get difficult to feed, even in Winchester M70s...... From 65% Meplat to 68% Meplat is OPTIMUM for Stability, destruction of tissues, and feed and function in most quality rifles..........

#2 Nose Profile
There are many and varied Nose Profiles of solids on the market today, from the angled Nose Profiles of CEB and North Fork, to the straight nose profile of the older North Forks and GSC, the Barnes/Hornady Profiles (like a RN cut off at the top) to many more... Not all of these are created equal, and some are better performers than others. In recent tests in comparison between the old North Fork Profiles and the Newer North Fork Profiles I was getting 20% deeper penetration with the Newer North Forks than the older, with the same bullet, just difference in Nose Profile is all.... John at North Fork agrees, and in their work there they were getting more along the lines of 25% deeper penetration. One major thing that I noticed here, the stability at the end of penetration was 100% better. In most all tests here the last 2 inches of penetration of the old style North Forks would be unstable. Now this is and was of no consequence at the very end of penetration. The depth of penetration of these older nose profile bullets was always so deep that it had long accomplished its mission before loss of stability right at the very end. This new NOSE PROFILE of North Forks remains DEAD STRAIGHT to the very last of penetration, and always found NOSE FORWARD........

#3 Construction & Material
Construction of a solid is a major part of its ability to penetrate. To deny this is foolish to say the least. Some of our solids out there, lead core, are very very weak in construction and absolutely do not have the ability to bust through heavy bone and reach their intended targets. I have seen and have in hand failures of these bullets from the field..... A shame as well, as some of these bullets are promoted as Dangerous Game Solids, and some of them flatten out like pancakes when hitting heavy dense material. Some FMJ Have steel inserts, while this solves a problem in one area, it creates problems in other areas.... Brass is harder than Copper... No surprise there, but I have busted elephant heads with both copper and brass, and never had one distort, but, these solids were of a very STRONG NOSE PROFILE as well........ So you see, combinations of different factors work together to strengthen or weaken other factors..... A good strong Nose Profile, can overcome some material deficiencies and in the case of copper solids this is extremely important.

#4 Nose Projection
Nose Projection above the top bands was the last factor discovered. There may be more factors, but currently they remain undiscovered at this point in time.... We found that nose projection above the top of the bands of current CNC monolithic bullets is very important to depth of penetration. Some bullets designed to work through lever actin riflers require a SHORT NOSE PROJECTION in front of the bands so that they can be loaded deep enough to work through the actions of these guns... Nose Projection of these same bullets for bolt guns, single shots, and double rifles are longer, from .600 to .700 in front of the top band. The LONGER NOSE PROJECTION solids will penetrate on average 25% deeper than the shorter nose projection. Now, these bullets already have all the other required factors for stability, nose profile, construction and radius, so it is ONLY DEPTH Of penetration that is effected with properly designed bullets.


#5 Radius Edge of Meplat
We found that the radius edge of the meplat made a difference, small, but a difference none the less. A nicely radius edge penetrates about 5% deeper, and has more stability at the end than a sharp edged radius.... No more to go into here, thats it.......


All the Above Factors Deal with Bullet Design........


#6 Velocity

Velocity is a factor, but it also goes hand in hand with Nose Profile and Construction/Material. If we assume that the Meplat is optimum, the nose projection is optimum, and the bullet has a nice radius then velocity becomes a factor in combination with nose profile and construction/materials. Different Nose Profiles react differently with velocity. Some nose profiles at very low velocity cannot maintain stability, but this would be in the extreme, and other factors may come into play with some of this. In essence with some Nose Profiles, added velocity will equate to added depth of penetration, and of course trauma and destruction of tissue. Some nose profiles react better than others, but if properly designed, then all will get some gain from added velocity, UNTIL you reach the point that you get distortion of the meplat by TOO MUCH VELOCITY. Once you begin to distort that meplat, then all sorts of strange things begin to occur. One is depth of penetration will decrease, stability will decrease as well....... Normally you will only get this at extreme velocities at 2700-2800 fps or more, which in our big bore rifles is somewhat extreme.......... Lead core bullets will be effected in a serious manner at extreme velocities, followed by copper, and then brass........ Nose Profile and Construction & Material are very important for Factor #6.........

#7 Barrel Twist Rate
Barrel twist rate really only becomes a factor when Factor #1 is DEFICIENT....... If the meplat of caliber is undersized, less than 65%, then faster twist rates WILL INCREASE the depth of penetration by increasing the stability of terminal penetration. A 65% Meplat of Caliber can stabilize in slower twist rates of 1:18, or even slower...... I have seen 65% Meplat of Caliber stabilize with ZERO TWIST....... I have seen 50% Meplat of Caliber stability increase with faster twist rates, and have documentation to prove it, several times...... If you are using a properly designed Solid, then twist rate becomes less important, and more important if you are not using a proper designed solid. Fast Twist Rates can also increase stability of even RN Solids of decent design, hardly anything can increase stability of a more pointy RN FMJ.......


#8 Sectional Density
Sectional Density will ONLY BE A FACTOR with two bullets that are exactly the same in every other Factor or aspect. Factors #1 and #2 far outweigh Sectional Density in the terminal performance of Solids. We can take a properly designed 458 caliber 325 gr Solid and far out penetrate in depth and stability a poorly designed 550 gr 458 caliber bullet....... My son recently shot a medium sized elephant at 10 yards, perfectly executed side brain shot, with a 350 gr .474 caliber properly designed solid at 2200 fps. This bullet exited the head on the far side and still may be going for all I know. A 350 gr .474 caliber bullet has a sectional density of .223, and I personally would choose this little 350 gr bullet over the Woodleigh 500 gr RN FMJ at .4725 (ones I have here) any and every day for any mission............



These are undeniable facts, and can be proven over and over and over again in all test work, and these factors have been exercised in the field and have proven themselves in the field, many many times over...... These are the 8 Known Factors of Terminal Penetration of Solid Bullets.................
 
Saw a video showing instability of .303 British rounds. They became more accurate apparently at 3-400 yards as has been explained above.
 

Forum statistics

Threads
59,627
Messages
1,294,777
Members
108,365
Latest member
ArleneHors
 

 

 

Latest profile posts

schwerpunkt88 wrote on Robmill70's profile.
Morning Rob, Any feeling for how the 300 H&H shoots? How's the barrel condition?
mrpoindexter wrote on Charlm's profile.
Hello. I see you hunted with Sampie recently. If you don't mind me asking, where did you hunt with him? Zim or SA? And was it with a bow? What did you hunt?

I am possibly going to book with him soon.
Currently doing a load development on a .404 Jeffrey... it's always surprising to load .423 caliber bullets into a .404 caliber rifle. But we love it when we get 400 Gr North Fork SS bullets to 2300 FPS, those should hammer down on buffalo. Next up are the Cutting Edge solids and then Raptors... load 200 rounds of ammo for the customer and on to the next gun!
 
Top