Bullet suggestion for heart / lung shot on Elephant ?

[Fordy]

Gday Philip

You've shared a textbook discussion from a reloading perspective where I presented a real world experience. This is fine and it's what AH is all about. Sharing experiences.

Textbook discussions is what I thought you were up for as if we could start on that we could move to actuals although I have no real life with the “textbook discussion “ on the 470 although a mate owns one & my ph this year also does that’s all my experience is on that & I made that clear I believe as I stated “ I’ll delve into as we go “ this part is not a textbook discussion but delving into a terminal discussion on actuals taken from many many critters that have been measured of this vrs that style or brand& more importantly where killing performance starts to lesson to darn right ridiculous & poor killing ( I’ll leave numbers out as I don’t want to get into the part of that’s not possible or look @ me syndrome as I’ve had too deal with that on the only 2 other forums I’ve visited ( I’m only present on one other these days plus here on my ph’s request this year ) one forum putting it better than another but what a $hit show it was & i don’t like it & all !!!
All I want to do is find a better mousetrap & found by having some general conversations like I’ve started here & other threads as to find the part of the puzzle im not seeing yes I don’t know everything so my part is read , ask & learn like I have with this forum & I’ll put my part forward to hopefully get that discussion going & hopefully I can return the favour helping
)

yes I have plenty of those actual although not personally shot a elephant ( present yes on seeing ) I’d say I’ve got enough of the bovine & other critters real world results to make some textbook discussions & comparison of a “solid is a solid “ statement of no it’s not

Hence a proper solid vrs a barnes tsx comparison across various resistances & various impacts that a proper designed solid will out preform a Barnes tsx & that is where I relayed the “textbook “theory based off actuals I’ve seen of where the tsx dosent produce as consistent results as a proper designed solid with the exception of that I measure ( more to come on this as we go )

I have been known as a bullet companies worst nightmare ( that’s from a couple companies themselves & I’ll leave what individuals think as that’s varied as depends if it aligns with their choices/thoughts & don’t like what I show but factual they are ) but I overall kinda kept to myself for around 3 decades of pretty full on testing & only turned up on these types of forums due to nice people asking me please share your experience as repartition will show where a pill fails & take your beloved tsx I’ve already shown a system that guarantees more consistency but upto the individual if they use it as some have no need as they are in a sweetspot of where the Barnes works well but your 470 no it’s on the edge as it is shot as is & yes that’s based off theory of every other caliber barnes I’ve shot being roughly 8 different calibers off the top of my head into many 000’s of critters & make special note I hone in on the ones that showed poor results & replicate those as the good yes I like those but if you improve the poor results the overall gain is greater than already improving the good & leaving the poor & hope it doesn’t happen again

1. A solid is a solid with the exception of round nose versus flat nose. Ive spent my life killing critters and solid bullets don't do much damage whether it's a rabbit or otherwise. They just poke a hole. The point of a solid is maximum penetration.

Stay tuned on above I’ll show the other way around as done a pretty cool test when I was trying to sort out a better option for the tiny ten on which type of bullet produced smaller wounds in these little guys as to not damage the hide with big holes
& here’s where a proper designed solid gave more damage to the hides of small critters than the likes of Barnes ,hammer nosler etip ,gs custom OEP to name a few yes don’t assume I’ve learned

2. I am certain the rhino would have been dispatched quicker with the TSX in the scenario I presented.

With respect that’s just a theory as terminal results show different outcome re my “textbook discussion “

3. I didn't measure the hole on the hippo I just know the TSX killed it. In my experience not a lot of forensics are required with the TSX. They are just dead. They are kinda boring!

Once again with respect & too others also here’s where one gets slightly off the path of terminal results being somewhat shaded in that people look @ the good & then you hear oh but it’s a once off or I’ve not seen it & my old mentor ( rest his sole ) had it correct of “Keep shooting the pattern will come “ & that’s where I’m definitely different as I hone in on the less than ideal & also a extremely important part of please clarify what is “just dead” as that to me is really open to interpretation of a few things that is also better for another day as this post already has a lot too take in

4. I didn't say I was going to hunt an elephant with a TSX I just stated that it was a discussion we were not allowed to have. I've hunted elephant and I know the scenario can change on a dime.

Regards,
Philip

I don’t get that as if one knows how quickly things can go to potential pear shape in click of your fingers why shouldn’t we have the discussion as to show WHY people need to be wary @ a minimum & where the likes of inferior designs yes more than Barnes out there that I can guarantee & stood up against those as totally stupidity & ego on putting out what they do got in the way of personal thoughts & selling bullets vrs the hard factual information gathered by individuals not only myself

Yes it a discussion we should be having & continue to have
Now I’m not saying a proper true solid will always be the only way to kill a elephant the best as potentially the day May come that someone cracks the nut on a better mousetrap but a extreme amount of testing would be needed before it could become the best & that’s by not looking @ when things go to plan & the pill worked as it’s when it will fail or @ minimum give less than ideal results that the big issue arises

Thanks for your time & looking forward to a healthy discussion on a few things that I’ve not delved deep enough in as I’m sure this post is already long enough but it will come
Sorry for my writing skills also as I’m not the sharpest tool in the shed in that field


Cheers

 

[Fordy]

Gday Micheal458

I think you are in for a good lesson. Fordy has taken more game in a month than you have in your entire life...........

Guess it’s time to come somewhat clean. ( I’ll still keep actual numbers out )

Yes I’ve taken a few critters in my time & the sad think is a lot of these critters are left to rot or put in a pit but I still don’t classify myself as a guru as still so much to learn & one that I’m really looking forward to learning more on the little traits that will show a better way on elephant & that I will rely on guys like you & others that have taken them but one that I’m definitely not happy with just a dead critter or other words that some use & I’ll delve deeper to see what can be worked out & if my small parts of what I’ve learned can be applied well now we are on the way to a even better /cleaner/quicker kill & ultimately that’s what I aim for even with the best I’ve seen


Here’s a few snapshots off my phone
Ok I’m having issues posting the pictures up I attached in a time schedule that allows me a bit more sleep as I need to be up in just under 3&1/2 hrs sorry so what’s loaded is loaded sorry but I added a few screenshots of those snapshots to hopefully give a clearer picture?

Overall I think it’s when the likes of people who can step back clear their heads & go hmmm maybe something in this & that is where we can all move forward & for those that think their one critter isn’t important please please don’t think that but the measurements are needed like @deewayne2003 put up as that’s pretty factual information on deflection & one we can all learn from & back that up with Micheal’s extensive tests you see what’s occurring on penetration & wound channels & now the bar is set & more to add too that as we go & one that will start off on the most basic conversation but grow it will with facts like these & overall the bar will be raised & imo that’s why we need to keep the conversation going

Ok I’ve waited long enough on pictures to load but I’m done & will post later sorry
Cheers

 

[michael458]

Yes I’ve taken a few critters in my time & the sad think is a lot of these critters are left to rot or put in a pit

I am good friends with JD Jones. JD told me about the times they would all pack up and head to Australia for those culling shoots, donkey, buffalo, camel and what have you. They really could not take enough ammo and always ran out at some point, no matter how much they took. They were doing a lot of bullet and cartridge testing in those days. JD said they were shooting so much, that after a few days they would have to leave the area because of the smell, and start up again elsewhere. We are talking 100s on top of 100s, leading to 1000s of animals taken doing this. I know this is what you have been involved with to an extent. To a lesser extent I have made a few trips to Australia with my friend down there Paul Truccolo when he still had his hunting area and we would shoot a lot of buffalo. I was also testing the various B&M cartridges and rifles, and more so the bullets that we were developing for them. The first trip we were shooting 1st Generation copper HP CNC and Solids that JD and I had collaborated on, made by Lehigh at the time. After 40+ buffalo it was truly an eye opening experience, comparing the different commercial bullets with the new CNC bullets. Later we would be making a few more trips doing the same with the CEB Raptors and Solids, and that was another step up in performance as well. You can gain a hell of a lot of experience and learn a lot of about Terminal Performance when you are in a position to do a lot of shooting.

Most all my African trips after 2005 have also been shooting trips. Not much trophy hunting but lots of shooting doing the test work on rifles, cartridges and above all, THE BULLETS............I was lucky in those days taking left over quota for several years, always having 5-10 buffalo on quota, lots of plains game and on occasion an elephant or two. I retired from the field several years ago when I had accomplished all I set out to do. We always did the test work up front, then to the field to confirm the data. One hell of a learning experience.

 

[DLSJR]

This has been a great discussion. Lots of good information here, as well as a bit that should be reconsidered. First, there is only ONE bullet type that is suitable for elephants in this day and age and that’s a flat point solid. Period.

While cup point solids and even TSX’s may be sufficient for body shots, especially on cows and juvenile bulls, you must always be prepared to shoot a fully mature bull with a frontal brain shot; as a self-defense shot is always a possibility. Any bullet not capable of a frontal brain shot on a large fully mature bull really isn’t sufficient for elephants. And don’t ever lose sight of the fact that there is an immense difference between a cow or juvenile bull and a fully mature bull, up to a 6,000 pound difference. A bullet sufficient for a small body elephant may not be suitable for an 11,000-12,000 pound old bull.

Also, if you have to make a follow-up shot on a rapidly departing elephant, you want a bullet that’ll drive very deep and straight. Nothing does that as well as a flat point solid such as Cutting Edge, Trophy Bonded Sledgehammer, Northfork Regular solid or Swift Breakaway solid. There are other excellent ones like the Woodley and a few others but a cup point solid or ANY expanding bullet is NEVER an appropriate choice.

Every aspiring elephant hunter would be wise to remember what Roy Vincent told me on my first elephant hunt, back in 1983. Roy said “Don’t ever forget that an elephant can hurt you worse accidentally than most other animals can on purpose. And if an elephant truly wants to destroy you, your remains won’t be identifiable.”

Keep that thought in mind when considering which bullet to shoot.

 

[Riflecrank]

The Roy Vincent thought is indeed a good one to keep in mind,
when elephant hunting.

Forget the Trophy Bonded Sledgehammer "Solid" however.
It is a nonsolid, brass encapsulated lead core.
Like the steel encapsulated, lead core Hornady DGS,
it can flatten the tail, fish tail, bend like a banana.
Even the old brass encapsulated tungsten core Speer Grand Slam
is too failure-prone in same way,
and add to that the tungsten core sometimes drills through the nose and sheds the brass jacket.

Use only monometal brass or copper solids.
Truly Solid solids.

 

[DLSJR]

The Roy Vincent thought is indeed a good one to keep in mind,
when elephant hunting.

Forget the Trophy Bonded Sledgehammer "Solid" however.
It is a nonsolid, brass encapsulated lead core.
Like the steel encapsulated, lead core Hornady DGS,
it can flatten the tail, fish tail, bend like a banana.
Even the old brass encapsulated tungsten core Speer Grand Slam
is too failure-prone in same way,
and add to that the tungsten core sometimes drills through the nose and sheds the brass jacket.

Use only monometal brass or copper solids.
Truly Solid solids.

Interesting that you mention this, as I’ve heard it before. Alan Vincent, Roy’s son, is a PH of 34 years experience and whom I do most of my hunting with. He loves Trophy Bonded Sledgehammers for elephant hunting. Like the rest of us, he considers the Monometal, flat nose solids to be excellent, but told me just a few weeks ago that one of his very favorite solids is the TB Sledgehammer. He shot several elephants in March-April for local communities on PAC and community use, and recounted how fantastic the performance was with the Sledgehammers. He’s had a difficult time finding Sledgehammers, so as soon as I returned from Zimbabwe I checked Federal’s website and bought him some .458/500 grain Sledgehammers to load.

Like many things in life, opinions about solids vary. Alan’s is based on pretty extensive personal experience.

 

[Fordy]

Gday
I think this part is extremely important of DLSJR ‘s

This has been a great discussion. Lots of good information here, as well as a bit that should be reconsidered. First, there is only ONE bullet type that is suitable for elephants in this day and age and that’s a flat point solid. Period.

While cup point solids and even TSX’s may be sufficient for body shots, especially on cows and juvenile bulls, you must always be prepared to shoot a fully mature bull with a frontal brain shot; as a self-defense shot is always a possibility. Any bullet not capable of a frontal brain shot on a large fully mature bull really isn’t sufficient for elephants. And don’t ever lose sight of the fact that there is an immense difference between a cow or juvenile bull and a fully mature bull, up to a 6,000 pound difference. A bullet sufficient for a small body elephant may not be suitable for an 11,000-12,000 pound old bull.

Also, if you have to make a follow-up shot on a rapidly departing elephant, you want a bullet that’ll drive very deep and straight. Nothing does that as well as a flat point solid such as Cutting Edge, Trophy Bonded Sledgehammer, Northfork Regular solid or Swift Breakaway solid. There are other excellent ones like the Woodley and a few others but a cup point solid or ANY expanding bullet is NEVER an appropriate choice.

Trying to find out a little bit more out on this so apologies in advance for a touch derail then I’ll get back on track I promise

What difference is there between the bone structure & depth of that bone on a big bull to younger bull
Now on bovine bulls the skulls get thicker & more dense & the leg bones also are definitely harder to break ( it’s why a big caliber & proper designed pill reign supreme for consistency & minimum are minimum for a reason ) on the bulls where as the bovine cows they somewhat get a touch thicker in skull & it’s interesting on bones as the older cows get thinner bones
This is mainly from lactation but I’m just curious to see if this is also relevant to elephant??

Back to subject & On this of riflecrank ‘s

Use only monometal brass or copper solids.
Truly Solid solids.

Two parts in my mind to add too this & maybe just this muppet ( me ) making sure it’s very clear as i don’t think enough understand this in some bullet companies bullets advertised is vastly different than reality

The additional two parts imo

A/ A good nose profile ( yep everyone has that covered I believe well most as some just go off a companies advertisement as in all reality how many have taken elephant & why this forum is extremely important too sort out fact from fiction )

B/ a good alloy that can withstand the pressures on impact on these critters as nose profile alone won’t help some alloys especially copper as some are just too soft & even the terrible hornady DGS shows better results


Paying close attention to those extra 2 will show the flaws in that choice & better off seeing it before it’s put in a elephants head & not relying on the ph to fix it

Maybe more parts & welcome them

Cheers