British Shotguns and Slugs?

[Hoss Delgado]

Yeah , l know that the Brits invented paradox guns which were regulated for shooting conical balls and shot .
But what about ordinary British shotguns made by H&H , W W Greener , Purdey , Westley Richards , etc ? Were they all unsafe for shooting with rifled slugs ?
Check this out guys

So we know that Eley , back in the '50s and '60s definitely made factory loaded rifled slugs . Wouldn't that mean that at least some of the British shotguns ( NOT paradox ) could handle slugs the way a BRNO sxs or a modern Multichoke shotgun can ?
Thoughts ?
I know that the members here treat it as a big no no. Were the box lock and side lock actions not strong enough ?
Really appreciate it
Hoss

 

[Kawshik Rahman]

Hoss Delgado
Seeing those old Eley cartridges brings back many excellent memories of mine.
I do not consider myself an expert , but l will try my best to answer your question.
Firstly, it must be borne in mind that Eley did not merely manufacture cartridges for solely English fire arms in mind , despite English hunters being their predominant market . Many American shot-guns of the era of 12 bore and also Spanish shot-guns and Belgian shot-guns could also be used with Eley cartridges. The Eley slug type bullets which you show , were infact used by a client of mine in his pump operation shot-gun of 12 bore made by the firm , Winchester to hunt a leopard. This , we should not assume that Eley manufactured slug bullets thinking only about English shot-guns.
Secondly , unless l am very mistaken , l do believe that most of the English shot-guns have weigh in the ambit of 6 pounds and have barrels with walls which were relatively thin compared to other shot-gun muzzles . I do not think that these types of guns were designed for slug type bullets.
Whether or not the box lock or side lock mechanisms of these guns were not built durable enough to withstand multiple firings of slug bullets , l cannot say.
But using something in a manner which it was not designed to be used , can never be healthy.
English shot-guns were designed for shooting birds and hares . The ball-and-shot-guns were specifically designed for shooting slug type bullets as they had a little bit of rifling groove in the choke part of the muzzles.

 

[Hoss Delgado]

Hoss Delgado
Seeing those old Eley cartridges brings back many excellent memories of mine.
I do not consider myself an expert , but l will try my best to answer your question.
Firstly, it must be borne in mind that Eley did not merely manufacture cartridges for solely English fire arms in mind , despite English hunters being their predominant market . Many American shot-guns of the era of 12 bore and also Spanish shot-guns and Belgian shot-guns could also be used with Eley cartridges. The Eley slug type bullets which you show , were infact used by a client of mine in his pump operation shot-gun of 12 bore made by the firm , Winchester to hunt a leopard. This , we should not assume that Eley manufactured slug bullets thinking only about English shot-guns.
Secondly , unless l am very mistaken , l do believe that most of the English shot-guns have weigh in the ambit of 6 pounds and have barrels with walls which were relatively thin compared to other shot-gun muzzles . I do not think that these types of guns were designed for slug type bullets.
Whether or not the box lock or side lock mechanisms of these guns were not built durable enough to withstand multiple firings of slug bullets , l cannot say.
But using something in a manner which it was not designed to be used , can never be healthy.
English shot-guns were designed for shooting birds and hares . The ball-and-shot-guns were specifically designed for shooting slug type bullets as they had a little bit of rifling groove in the choke part of the muzzles.

But Mr. Rahman You read Jim Corbett , right ? He used slugs in his English shotgun to kill a leopard

 

[Kawshik Rahman]

But Mr. Rahman You read Jim Corbett , right ? He used slugs in his English shotgun to kill a leopard

Hoss Delgado
Yes , l have read all of Jim Corbett's excellent works. I have those books even now in my living room. If you will recall , those were not slug type bullets. Those were LG cartridges ( he even specifically said that one cartridge held six pellets ).
On a further note , even shooting LG cartridges regularly in an English shot-gun is not good. Jim Corbett only did it one time for one leopard. The other times , he used his 7 millimeter mauser bolt operation rifle made by John Rigby and Co or his .400 bore double barrel rifle made by Jeffery or his .500 bore Double barrel rifle . He also had a martini henry rifle of .450 bore to shoot goats and another 7 millimeter mauser bolt operation rifle with two triggers made by Westley Richards.

 

[Hoss Delgado]

Hoss Delgado
Yes , l have read all of Jim Corbett's excellent works. I have those books even now in my living room. If you will recall , those were not slug type bullets. Those were LG cartridges ( he even specifically said that one cartridge held six pellets ).
On a further note , even shooting LG cartridges regularly in an English shot-gun is not good. Jim Corbett only did it one time for one leopard. The other times , he used his 7 millimeter mauser bolt operation rifle made by John Rigby and Co or his .400 bore double barrel rifle made by Jeffery or his .500 bore Double barrel rifle . He also had a martini henry rifle of .450 bore to shoot goats and another 7 millimeter mauser bolt operation rifle with two triggers made by Westley Richards.

Hey , l just checked my ebook again
Damn , you were right , Mr. Rahman ! It was buckshot. You might not have read as many books as l did , but Damn , you really remember the books which ya did

 

[Von S.]

Why would anyone, who has had time to give it some thought, ever take a shotgun to kill dangerous animals from any continent if they owned a suitable dangerous game caliber rifle like a 458 or larger and even more powerful?

Yes! I did say that I did put together a 10 ga o/u specifically for wounded leopard, but I also said that I thanked god that I came to my senses before I actually made that mistake.

Besides......there are no "wounded leopards" running around after everything in the chest gets blown out by one well aimed blast from a 458 or bigger.

 

[Hoss Delgado]

Why would anyone, who has had time to give it some thought, ever take a shotgun to kill dangerous animals from any continent if they owned a suitable dangerous game caliber rifle like a 458 or larger and even more powerful?

Yes! I did say that I did put together a 10 ga o/u specifically for wounded leopard, but I also said that I thanked god that I came to my senses before I actually made that mistake.

Besides......there are no "wounded leopards" running around after everything in the chest gets blown out by one well aimed blast from a 458 or bigger.

Hey Von long time no see .
I know , l know . So many of you experienced guys warned me against it
I was just curious about the mechanical aspect of things
Like , are there no British shotguns capable of shooting buckshot or rifled slugs , at all ?

 

[WAB]

Not true at all Hoss. Definitely a bad idea in a game gun which is what is being referred to in these posts. However the British companies made plenty of more heavily constructed guns for other purposes.

 

[Hoss Delgado]

Not true at all Hoss. Definitely a bad idea in a game gun which is what is being referred to in these posts. However the British companies made plenty of more heavily constructed guns for other purposes.

Thanks Wab

 

[Kawshik Rahman]

Not true at all Hoss. Definitely a bad idea in a game gun which is what is being referred to in these posts. However the British companies made plenty of more heavily constructed guns for other purposes.

Wab
You are correct. My friend , Captain Newaz ( whom l have written an article about , here ) killed 81 panthers with a 12 bore side by side shot-gun made by John Dickson and Co. He has been using LG cartridges in the fire arm from the 1950s decade ( Eley LG cartridges of 70 millimeter length ) and has not had a problem . It weighs more than the average British bird shot-gun , being around the ambit of 7 pounds .

 

[WAB]

If you are interested in shotguns from the British trade, look for books by Gough Thomas Garwood. He also wrote as Gough Thomas. Some of the most definitive work on the subject.

 

[mr mauser]

Before I answer Hoss, let me tell you my story:
I used my favored "London`s Best" Joseph Lang sidelock side by side shotgun with single trigger (!!) for years. It is built in 1908 and was sold on the 10th of August 1908 to Captain M.Fitzgerald in London. It is in the original case with full shotgun equipment and I never had any problems with the marvelous rifle. Great pigeon shotgun which pointed automatically. Yes the old english gunmakers know there job over hunderd years ago very well. The shotgun was light and easy to lead. Take a new double shotgun in your hands and you know what I mean. Because the 12/65 Lang had 2 1/2 chambers, I always used the right ammunition for that chambers with a maximum shotshellsize of 6 (2,7 mm).

Last year when we had a pigeon hunt with many hunters in a great district, many pigeons where in the air. I was sitting with my german shorthair pointer "Casper" in a camouflage tent, from which I shot in 2 hours over 20 pigeons. "Casper" had to work hard and he loves it to bring me the birds. The sun was shining and all was fine. The Lang works perfect, when I made a shot that sounds difficult and the pigeon I pointed at a short distance was flying away.
I thought it was a misfire or a limp cartridge. Was not - I saw the right barrel was rolled up to the side in the front part of the barrel. It looks as when I had used a tin opener.
My fingers are ok, my dog, sitting beside , was okay - so I congratulated me to my luck at that moment. But I am sad for the destructed expensive Lang.

My gunsmith found out that is was an material fatigue of the barrel. The barrel thickness of that old nitro proofed gun was much thinner than shotgun barrels of today. Maybe that the pressure of the older gunpower was also weaker than that of our times.

So Hoss, I will answer your question with a strictly: NO don`t do that with an old shotgun. When a shotshell cartridge could make such an bad destruction, I dont want to know, what will happen, when I had used a slug with more pressure in that shotgun.....
Look at the picture and you understand, what I mean.

Happy end of the story: I found a fantastic and genious gunsmith (not in England, where I was searching for some months, because I thought you can only found such specialists in the home of double barrel shotguns) .... in germany not far away from my hometown (Mr. Thiemann from Wegberg, Rhineland North Rhine-Westfalia), who sleeved new 70 chamber barrels in the rifle barrel block, used the old middle rail and an zella mehlis engraver in Germany engraved the missing letters of the barrel inscription perfectly. Only a very small gap can be seen, when you look at the barrel end part.
Great job: the old shotgun performs perfect. It is a little bit more heavy, because the new barrels are a bit stronger than the older ones. But I had an all purpose 12/70 shotgun, which can now work well for the next hundred years! A british-german cooperative shotgun - a good connecting example in such crazy times.

 

[Kawshik Rahman]

Before I answer Hoss, let me tell you my story:
I used my favored "London`s Best" Joseph Lang sidelock side by side shotgun with single trigger (!!) for years. It is built in 1908 and was sold on the 10th of August 1908 to Captain M.Fitzgerald in London. It is in the original case with full shotgun equipment and I never had any problems with the marvelous rifle. Great pigeon shotgun which pointed automatically. Yes the old english gunmakers know there job over hunderd years ago very well. The shotgun was light and easy to lead. Take a new double shotgun in your hands and you know what I mean. Because the 12/65 Lang had 2 1/2 chambers, I always used the right ammunition for that chambers with a maximum shotshellsize of 6 (2,7 mm).

Last year when we had a pigeon hunt with many hunters in a great district, many pigeons where in the air. I was sitting with my german shorthair pointer "Casper" in a camouflage tent, from which I shot in 2 hours over 20 pigeons. "Casper" had to work hard and he loves it to bring me the birds. The sun was shining and all was fine. The Lang works perfect, when I made a shot that sounds difficult and the pigeon I pointed at a short distance was flying away.
I thought it was a misfire or a limp cartridge. Was not - I saw the right barrel was rolled up to the side in the front part of the barrel. It looks as when I had used a tin opener.
My fingers are ok, my dog, sitting beside , was okay - so I congratulated me to my luck at that moment. But I am sad for the destructed expensive Lang.

My gunsmith found out that is was an material fatigue of the barrel. The barrel thickness of that old nitro proofed gun was much thinner than shotgun barrels of today. Maybe that the pressure of the older gunpower was also weaker than that of our times.

View attachment 315307


View attachment 315311
So Hoss, I will answer your question with a strictly: NO don`t do that with an old shotgun. When a shotshell cartridge could make such an bad destruction, I dont want to know, what will happen, when I had used a slug with more pressure in that shotgun.....
Look at the picture and you understand, what I mean.

Happy end of the story: I found a fantastic and genious gunsmith (not in England, where I was searching for some months, because I thought you can only found such specialists in the home of double barrel shotguns) .... in germany not far away from my hometown (Mr. Thiemann from Wegberg, Rhineland North Rhine-Westfalia), who sleeved new 70 chamber barrels in the rifle barrel block, used the old middle rail and an zella mehlis engraver in Germany engraved the missing letters of the barrel inscription perfectly. Only a very small gap can be seen, when you look at the barrel end part.
Great job: the old shotgun performs perfect. It is a little bit more heavy, because the new barrels are a bit stronger than the older ones. But I had an all purpose 12/70 shotgun, which can now work well for the next hundred years! A british-german cooperative shotgun - a good connecting example in such crazy times.

Mr. Mauser
I agree wholeheartedly. I recently purchased this 12 bore Westley Richards box lock shot-gun made in 1929 and l only fire Eley or Game Bore number 6 cartridges from mine. It is beautiful for quails .
I am sorry to hear about your excellent Joseph Lang piece.

 

[Ridgewalker]

Oh my Mr Mauser! So sorry to see that!

 

[Red Leg]

Before I answer Hoss, let me tell you my story:
I used my favored "London`s Best" Joseph Lang sidelock side by side shotgun with single trigger (!!) for years. It is built in 1908 and was sold on the 10th of August 1908 to Captain M.Fitzgerald in London. It is in the original case with full shotgun equipment and I never had any problems with the marvelous rifle. Great pigeon shotgun which pointed automatically. Yes the old english gunmakers know there job over hunderd years ago very well. The shotgun was light and easy to lead. Take a new double shotgun in your hands and you know what I mean. Because the 12/65 Lang had 2 1/2 chambers, I always used the right ammunition for that chambers with a maximum shotshellsize of 6 (2,7 mm).

Last year when we had a pigeon hunt with many hunters in a great district, many pigeons where in the air. I was sitting with my german shorthair pointer "Casper" in a camouflage tent, from which I shot in 2 hours over 20 pigeons. "Casper" had to work hard and he loves it to bring me the birds. The sun was shining and all was fine. The Lang works perfect, when I made a shot that sounds difficult and the pigeon I pointed at a short distance was flying away.
I thought it was a misfire or a limp cartridge. Was not - I saw the right barrel was rolled up to the side in the front part of the barrel. It looks as when I had used a tin opener.
My fingers are ok, my dog, sitting beside , was okay - so I congratulated me to my luck at that moment. But I am sad for the destructed expensive Lang.

My gunsmith found out that is was an material fatigue of the barrel. The barrel thickness of that old nitro proofed gun was much thinner than shotgun barrels of today. Maybe that the pressure of the older gunpower was also weaker than that of our times.

View attachment 315307


View attachment 315311
So Hoss, I will answer your question with a strictly: NO don`t do that with an old shotgun. When a shotshell cartridge could make such an bad destruction, I dont want to know, what will happen, when I had used a slug with more pressure in that shotgun.....
Look at the picture and you understand, what I mean.

Happy end of the story: I found a fantastic and genious gunsmith (not in England, where I was searching for some months, because I thought you can only found such specialists in the home of double barrel shotguns) .... in germany not far away from my hometown (Mr. Thiemann from Wegberg, Rhineland North Rhine-Westfalia), who sleeved new 70 chamber barrels in the rifle barrel block, used the old middle rail and an zella mehlis engraver in Germany engraved the missing letters of the barrel inscription perfectly. Only a very small gap can be seen, when you look at the barrel end part.
Great job: the old shotgun performs perfect. It is a little bit more heavy, because the new barrels are a bit stronger than the older ones. But I had an all purpose 12/70 shotgun, which can now work well for the next hundred years! A british-german cooperative shotgun - a good connecting example in such crazy times.

Ouch! You were very lucky. One of the most important checks on these wonderful old guns is barrel thickness. Many times a gun may have sat in case after its last firing for decades without cleaning. Between the wars, that firing would have included corrosive primers. An otherwise pristine gun is discovered by an heir, and upon inspection, has very pitted bores. Unscrupulous or unknowing gunsmiths grind the pitting away, too often leaving the gun out of proof and with dangerously thin walls. Unless it is measured, no one knows.

I never use maximum for proof loads in my golden age guns even with fully inspected and measured barrels. They have earned the right to be treated with tender loving care. Also, particularly in the States, we tend to overload for game. On most pheasant hunts in which I participate, the typical shooter is using 1 1/4 ounce loads of number 6 or even 4 shot. It is absolutely unnecessary. I have probably killed more driven pheasants with 1 0z loads than any other and 1 1/8 would be close behind. They are lethal - particularly from my Stephen Grant or Cashmore. Both were built before WWI.

So happy you were able to return that fine gun to the field.

 

[Ridgewalker]

I highly agree with Red Leg that we overload here in the US! For years I never shot less than 1 1/4 oz loads until I started shooting sporting clays. The price of lead went up and I eventually dropped to 7/8 oz in my 12. Hit just as many!
For pheasants I never use more than 1 1/8 oz even late season.

 

[WAB]

Absolutely agree. I shot competitively on the sporting clays circuit for many years. I never shot heavier than 7/8 oz loads. If I recall correctly, the standard English game load is 1 & 1/16 oz of English 6’s (American 7’s, not 7 1/2’s, 7’s). The std English game load is perfectly matched to their game guns, which I believe typically come in around 6 pounds and 10 or 12 ounces. I have found these loads absolutely lethal in both driven and rough shooting and really don’t understand why we load anything heavier for upland birds.

 

[Scrumbag]

I think it's important to realise that the UK gun trade built other things than light side by sides. Particularly Birmingham (Though some London makers too) built heavier guns and waterfowling pieces which will have been sold the world over and were a lot more solidly built.

As others have mentioned, UK ammo manufacturers were making cartridges for more than just light doubles. Think of the amount of Greener GP (Single barrel under lever) shotguns there must have been over the empire.

I have somewhere (will see if I can find it) a picture of .30-30 WCF made by Kynnoch.
- .30-30 I don't think has ever been common in the UK and not a lot of the empire, particularly Africa. However, Canada and Australia I understand really quite common as a chambering - So, presumably meeting market demand where they found it.

Scrummy

 

[Scrumbag]

Folks,

30-30 Kynnoch ammo:

 

[Scrumbag]

All, an example of my point of all British shotguns not being "dainty" side by sides.

https://auctions.holtsauctioneers.c...alelot=A1219+++1595+&refno=++146973&saletype=

A 10 bore shotgun specifically choken cylinder and cylinder for shooting single lead ball cartridges.

Some research about the gun is below, and if this isn't an "Empire gun" I don't know what is:

"WILLIAM POWELL & SON
A 10-BORE ( 3 1/2IN.) 1864 PATENT LIFT-UP TOPLEVER BOXLOCK NON-EJECTOR, serial no. 7130,
30in. nitro reproved barrels (some movement on action), the rib engraved 'WILLIAM POWELL & SON. 13 CARR'S LANE. BIRMINGHAM. PATENT.', 3 1/2in. chambers, bored approx. true cyl. in both, Anson & Deeley 1875 patent barrel cocking action, patent no. 1756, use no. 2280, incorporating William Powell patent lift-up toplever, patent no. 1163 of 7th May 1864, use number 2300, automatic safety with gold-inlaid 'SAFE' detail, carved percussion fences, fine border and acanthus scroll engraving, brushed bright and re-blued finish overall, 14in. figured pistolgrip stock (pinned at head) including steel buttplate and steel pistolgrip cap, fore-end with Deeley & Edge patent release catch, weight 8lb. 14oz., in a canvas and leather hammergun case

Provenance: The gun is accompanied by a letter from the makers reading:

B.L.N.E. No. 7130
10 Bore
Best Quality gun.
Bored cyl./cyl. to shoot single lead ball cartridges.
Weight of gun when new 9 1/4lbs.
Complete with case and all fittings etc.
Bought new on the 3rd July 1880 by Col. Probyn.
Price £35.00

Later that day the same man returned to buy some 12-bore pinfire cartridges and extras. He spent a total of £53 18 3d on that day.

Research would indicate that this was General Sir Dighton Macnaghten Probyn, VC, GCB, GCSI, GCVO, ISO, PC (21 January 1833 – 20 June 1924) he was a British Army officer and an English recipient of the Victoria Cross, the highest award for gallantry in the face of the enemy that can be awarded to British and Commonwealth forces.

Probyn was 24 years and a captain in the 2nd Punjab Cavalry, Bengal Army during the Indian Mutiny at which time the following events took place:

"(Probyn) Has been distinguished for gallantry and daring throughout this campaign. At the battle of Agra, when his squadron charged the rebel infantry, he was some time separated from his men, and surrounded by five or six sepoys. He defended himself from the various cuts made at him, and before his own men had joined him had cut down two of his assailants. At another time, in single combat with a sepoy, he was wounded in the wrist, by the bayonet, and his horse also was slightly wounded; but, though the sepoy fought desperately, he cut him down. The same day he singled out a standard bearer, and, in the presence of a number of the enemy, killed him and captured the standard. These are only a few of the gallant deeds of this brave young officer."

Despatch from Major-General James Hope Grant, K.C.B., dated 10th January, 1858.

On 4 March 1872, the Prince of Wales, later Edward VII, appointed him as one of his equerries. He was knighted as a Knight Commander of the Order of the Star of India (KCSI) on 7 March 1876, and was brevetted to lieutenant-general on 1 October 1877

He was in later life an ornament of the Victorian age, being Keeper of the Privy Purse, a court sinecure position as well as Secretary to the Prince of Wales and Comptroller of the Household. This was an important position as the Prince and Princess were both profligate in spending and Sir Dighton had a hard job to keep them solvent. Testimony to his success was the fact that, when the Prince acceded at last in 1901, he was in credit at the bank. Probyn had difficulty hiding the King's extravagance; which the minister Charles Hobhouse refused to defend in the Commons.

Probyn continued in this role throughout the King's rule and right up to his death. Sir Dighton was appointed an Extra Equerry to King Edward VII in 1902.

Probyn was totally devoted to the Princess, then Queen-Empress, building gardens for her at Windsor Castle and Sandringham House. The Queen returned the devotion, carrying round a knife with her to cut open his collar when he occasionally had seizures.

Sir Dighton had an impressive appearance in old age with a very long white beard reaching down to his navel which concealed his VC on ceremonial occasions. Probyn died on 20 June 1942 (aged 91) at Sandringham House, Norfolk. He was buried in Kensal Green Cemetery.

The VC earned by General Sir Dighton Probyn, according to The Times, was bought at auction 24 September 2005 for £160,000. Details of the purchaser were not given. "