Barrel twist for close shots

[Travis2282]

I listened to a very interesting podcast today with Kevin Robertson called elephant hunting 101 with Kevin Robertson which I would love to hear some opinions on this if anyone has time to listen to it. He spoke on different calibers and bullet weights and how there is less penetration on close shots within 30 meters or so because the bullets are not stabilized yet. He believed his bullets were tumbling. After they had stabilized some distance past that bullet penetration increased drastically with solids. Once he changed bullet weights where the greenhill twist calculations matched closer to his rifle setup he didn’t experience tumbling. Any thoughts or experiences with this?

 

[C.W. Richter]

Did he mention specific calibers/bullet weights that were a problem in factory twists? Shot my ele w/ a 400 gr .416 Barnes banded solid at ~30-<40 yds and buff at 20. The elephant was a quartering-away heart/lung shot and it Did run a couple hundred yards before expiring. Buff was 4 legs up in seconds. That may explain some of the issues people had with .458 WM? So, I'm surmising he's stating that in certain caliber/bullet combos the twist rate is too slow at short range?? (If a smaller bullet corrected the issue)

 

[Travis2282]

Did he mention specific calibers/bullet weights that were a problem?

Yes. I cannot remember the specific details though.

 

[Travis2282]

Ep 177: Elephant Hunting 101 With Kevin Robertson

Apple | Google | iHeart | Spotify | Stitcher

thebiggamehuntingblog.com

 

[C.W. Richter]

But, where's the fun in (correcting) that for the PHs? lol

 

[C.W. Richter]

Ep 177: Elephant Hunting 101 With Kevin Robertson

Apple | Google | iHeart | Spotify | Stitcher

thebiggamehuntingblog.com

listened to it (skipping through-Love KR, but don't care to hear someone talk for 1:30:00!!!) other than old FMJ (not true solid) bullets failing in other calibers, he said the .375 (higher V and SD, but longest bullet and varying factory twist rates) surprisingly is the culprit at very short range. He apparently likes the 458 Lott. 470 NE also have the title issue. may have to listen to these when flying out to my son in AK! I'll either be educated or sleep like a baby.

 

[C.W. Richter]

The story about another that dropped an elephant (still alive) but out of ammo, killing it through the ear canal with a cleaning rod was a pretty hairy story!! He further states that ele have no Pleural cavity, rather the lungs are attached to the ribs, so a broadside heart/lung shot is pretty certain death (even w/ the smaller caliber rifles used by old-timers,) although it will run a distance. Also great stories about the elephant only being knocked out (not Dead; tail cut off, leave for camp, come back-elephant gone!) smh

 

[C.W. Richter]

Have any PHs on here ever come across an elephant with a tail cut off (but otherwise unharmed?) 'any hunters shoot one missing a tail?? smh lol If that jumbo is 50+ they can have the tail!

 

[Travis2282]

The story about another that dropped an elephant (still alive) but out of ammo, killing it through the ear canal with a cleaning rod was a pretty hairy story!! He further states that ele have no Pleural cavity, rather the lungs are attached to the ribs, so a broadside heart/lung shot is pretty certain death (even w/ the smaller caliber rifles used by old-timers,) although it will run a distance. Also great stories about the elephant only being knocked out (not Dead; tail cut off, leave for camp, come back-elephant gone!) smh

I enjoyed some of these stories! He actually had many podcasts on dangerous game. Been listening to these on my drives to work.

 

[C.W. Richter]

i'm very slowly warming up to "podcasts." my son has no issue w/ em but it's just boring to hear someone and not see them. KRs stories are amongst the best I must say, and have read all of his books. I've said on here, if only everyone read his books, the posts would be much shorter. lol and even with HIS level of knowledge (Veterinarian, PH, author specializing in DG hunting,) people on here still argue with him (without prior knowledge.) lol

 

[Travis2282]

i'm very slowly warming up to "podcasts." my son has no issue w/ em but it's just boring to hear someone and not see them. KRs stories are amongst the best I must say, and have read all of his books. I've said on here, if only everyone read his books, the posts would be much shorter. lol and even with HIS level of knowledge (Veterinarian, PH, author specializing in DG hunting,) people on here still argue with him (without prior knowledge.) lol

This series was actually the first time I have listened to a podcast. He just keeps it interesting! I enjoyed his buffalo one also. Listening to hippo now!

 

[steve white]

Would insuficiently stabilized bullets imparting yaw from the bullet explain how two 600 nitro at point blank range failed to exit a hippo?

 

[Travis2282]

Would insuficiently stabilized bullets imparting yaw from the bullet explain how two 600 nitro at point blank range failed to exit a hippo?

I could definitely not answer that but according to the Kevin he experienced this on buffalo and elephant from other calibers.

 

[C.W. Richter]

Would insuficiently stabilized bullets imparting yaw from the bullet explain how two 600 nitro at point blank range failed to exit a hippo?

assuming a frontal shot, that 2" thick chest skin also has something to do with it!

 

[Tokoloshe Safaris]

Have any PHs on here ever come across an elephant with a tail cut off (but otherwise unharmed?) 'any hunters shoot one missing a tail?? smh lol If that jumbo is 50+ they can have the tail!

I have seen many elephant without tales. Was it due to a hunter or if they lost it to a hyena when they were a calf is unknown.
Also many with part of thier trunk missing.

 

[Velo Dog]

I once watched a very technologically advanced video of a 120 MM USA Tank fired round, as it left the muzzle of the main gun on an M1-A2 Abrams heavy battle tank.

All viewed in super slow motion, the projectile either immediately or very soon after leaving the muzzle, tilted somewhat nose down and butt slightly up, like a Weimaraner bird hound, sniffing after a pheasant, as it flew its course.
It was otherwise traveling smooth and proper, not wobbling or misbehaving in any other way.
It wasn’t until quite some distance further down range that it began to level out and fly pointed end forward.

I do not know if hunting rifle bullets do this or not.
But if they do, perhaps it might help explain less penetration at close range than a bit further out, that one experiences when shooting large heavy critters.
I have so little experience at shooting truly large animals that, I cannot really contribute anything more than the above information, from watching a video about a cannon bullet beginning it’s flight at a tilted angle.

Cheers.

 

[Velo Dog]

i'm very slowly warming up to "podcasts." my son has no issue w/ em but it's just boring to hear someone and not see them. KRs stories are amongst the best I must say, and have read all of his books. I've said on here, if only everyone read his books, the posts would be much shorter. lol and even with HIS level of knowledge (Veterinarian, PH, author specializing in DG hunting,) people on here still argue with him (without prior knowledge.) lol

Greetings C.W. Richter,

I agree with you that it’s sort of comical when a neophyte tries to argue against an expert.
It’s like a toddler saying they want candy for supper because it’s healthier than salmon.

That said and at the risk of sounding like I’m demanding candy for supper ………Dr. Robertson once was recommending persons using bolt action rifles for hunting, should upon firing each shot, lower the rifle from their shoulder, to somewhere near belly level, while running the bolt to reload their chamber with a fresh live round.
And then, bring the rifle back up, press the butt back into their shoulder, regain their sight picture and repeat when practicing and / or when necessary.

I do not recall why he recommended this but it might have been so the hunter could better see the critter they had just shot ?
Or perhaps visually watch the next round as it is being chambered ?
Not sure anymore what he said his reasoning was on this.

Dr. Robertson is rightfully a living legend and a tower of wisdom for sure.
I am the proverbial stupid stump, compared to him.
However, I learned to operate bolt action rifles from the shoulder, still pointed at my target as each round is fired, the spent brass ejected and each new live round chambered.
Live target or otherwise, my rifle remains firmly in firing position hard against my shoulder, “Sergeant York style”, as I operate the bolt each time.
My father taught me this method, beginning at age 16 and I will continue with it, because it has worked well for me plus, it honors the old man who wasn’t perfect, (he fancied tennis and golf ….. disgusting), but he saw too it that I learned how to stay safe and shoot straight.

blah blah whatever,
Velo Dog out.

 

[C.W. Richter]

Greetings C.W. Richter,

I agree with you that it’s sort of comical when a neophyte tries to argue against an expert.
It’s like a toddler saying they want candy for supper because it’s healthier than salmon.

That said and at the risk of sounding like I’m demanding candy for supper ………Dr. Robertson once was recommending persons using bolt action rifles for hunting, should upon firing each shot, lower the rifle from their shoulder, to somewhere near belly level, while running the bolt to reload their chamber with a fresh live round.
And then, bring the rifle back up, press the butt back into their shoulder, regain their sight picture and repeat when practicing and / or when necessary.

I do not recall why he recommended this but it might have been so the hunter could better see the critter they had just shot ?
Or perhaps visually watch the next round as it is being chambered ?
Not sure anymore what he said his reasoning was on this.

Dr. Robertson is rightfully a living legend and a tower of wisdom for sure.
I am the proverbial stupid stump, compared to him.
However, I learned to operate bolt action rifles from the shoulder, still pointed at my target as each round is fired, the spent brass ejected and each new live round chambered.
Live target or otherwise, my rifle remains firmly in firing position hard against my shoulder, “Sergeant York style”, as I operate the bolt each time.
My father taught me this method, beginning at age 16 and I will continue with it, because it has worked well for me plus, it honors the old man who wasn’t perfect, (he fancied tennis and golf ….. disgusting), but he saw too it that I learned how to stay safe and shoot straight.

blah blah whatever,
Velo Dog out.

Agreed on points like that. An old-timer 25 yrs my senior used to take me out hunting as a kid and had some really strange habits he tried to press upon me (ziploc bags in boots-sweat/freeze!) and similar pointing muzzle down at times...If you're actively firing, cycle the damn thing, stay on-target and fire! lol As a lot of the old radio DJs were fond of saying (while broadcasting, writing a book or article-NO dead air) just keep it going talking about whatever....LOL

 

[Inline6]

I listened to a very interesting podcast today with Kevin Robertson called elephant hunting 101 with Kevin Robertson which I would love to hear some opinions on this if anyone has time to listen to it. He spoke on different calibers and bullet weights and how there is less penetration on close shots within 30 meters or so because the bullets are not stabilized yet. He believed his bullets were tumbling. After they had stabilized some distance past that bullet penetration increased drastically with solids. Once he changed bullet weights where the greenhill twist calculations matched closer to his rifle setup he didn’t experience tumbling. Any thoughts or experiences with this?

I believe his reasoning is a little off base. I'm sure he has killed more ele than I have seen or will ever see. Has way more experience than I will ever hope to have. All that, I believe he is wrong.

Reasoning, the animals up close with the light bullets were being destroyed due to the velocity. That is the reason why they bullets shot through animals far away passed (the 170 yard shots) through. The velocity was low enough it was able to stay together. His heavy bullets perform well due to them being solid and a slower velocity. If he used 520/525 gr solid he would have seen a different outcome.

A long time ago when the 338LM was newer to the public. People said the same thing about the bullet not stabilize inside a couple 100 yards. People were not shooting tight groups at 100. The real problem is people have a hard time shooting it accurately. Personally have shot .25MOA or better with several 338LM. It took more concentration to make it happen.

Again this man obviously knows a lot, not taking that away from him.

 

[Travis2282]

I believe his reasoning is a little off base. I'm sure he has killed more ele than I have seen or will ever see. Has way more experience than I will ever hope to have. All that, I believe he is wrong.

Reasoning, the animals up close with the light bullets were being destroyed due to the velocity. That is the reason why they bullets shot through animals far away passed (the 170 yard shots) through. The velocity was low enough it was able to stay together. His heavy bullets perform well due to them being solid and a slower velocity. If he used 520/525 gr solid he would have seen a different outcome.

A long time ago when the 338LM was newer to the public. People said the same thing about the bullet not stabilize inside a couple 100 yards. People were not shooting tight groups at 100. The real problem is people have a hard time shooting it accurately. Personally have shot .25MOA or better with several 338LM. It took more concentration to make it happen.

Again this man obviously knows a lot, not taking that away from him.

You believe the solids were being destroyed at close range?