Another Poor Man’s Double

[EDELWEISS]

Thanks for the update. its looking good.

I agree 45-70 is a terrific round for an American DR. I built a similar design on a E German dated Merkel. Well "built isnt fair. I designed it and had a gunsmith do the actual building. In my case we made the Shotgun barrels 24 3/4" so the inserts were recessed, and thanks the the folks at NECG, I have a nice set of sights.

To avoid the whats a DR doing in 45-70, Im going to have Rocky Mountain Cartridge make me some 45-70 brass marked with a different cartridge name.
Im thinking:
450 I & A (for India and Afrika)
450 EXPRESS
45 Manchester
458 No2
450 2inch
450 2 1/2
450 Short
Any suggestions

 

[Papa72]

A second, but nonetheless important consideration I had with exposing the .45-70 barrel crowns 1/8” past the muzzles was to lessen hot gas impingement on the Chaszel insert’s tip o-rings. Can’t get around normal barrel heat transfer but I sought to eliminate direct contact with burning powder residue. We’ll see how long the o-rings hold up.

Well, I can’t really speak to restamping .45-70 brass to anything else unless the cartridge itself has been wildcatted, but can see where that might fool a neophyte. Then again, they wouldn’t know a .45-70 from a .22 would they?

 

[cajunchefray]

Thanks for the update. its looking good.

I agree 45-70 is a terrific round for an American DR. I built a similar design on a E German dated Merkel. Well "built isnt fair. I designed it and had a gunsmith do the actual building. In my case we made the Shotgun barrels 24 3/4" so the inserts were recessed, and thanks the the folks at NECG, I have a nice set of sights.

To avoid the whats a DR doing in 45-70, Im going to have Rocky Mountain Cartridge make me some 45-70 brass marked with a different cartridge name.
Im thinking:
450 I & A (for India and Afrika)
450 EXPRESS
45 Manchester
458 No2
450 2inch
450 2 1/2
450 Short
Any suggestions

Great project.
Possible cartridge stamps:

.450 AH
.450 US

 

[EDELWEISS]

Rocky Mountain Cartridge makes brass from "scratch" For a "minor" fee they will stamp pretty much anything you want that will fit. For a 45-70 base it cant be tooooo long and still be in a font size thats "readable" and worth the effort.

I havent checked the prices lately. Its not really something you want to have 100 cases made (for a round that you can easily find/make); but for a few to show off it might be worth the cost for bragging rights.

I was toying with making a Howdah pistol in 45-70; but calling it 450 Howdah, or perhaps something more Indian--thats where the 450 I & A idea came from.

If I can get Chazel to do something in a 50 caliber, Ill revisit the Howdah idea. I recall talking with a gunsmith who made a SxS in 480 Ruger. Thats not my first choice, as the 480 isnt exactly a popular round anymore. Something like 50-70 or a Black Powder load of 500S&W would be cool.

I havent done anything but dream about having Chazel make 45-120 inserts. I had a H&R Buffalo rifle rechambered for 45-120 but a buddy had to have it before I ever got to shoot it. The lonnnng 120s reminded me of 9.3x64R, which BTW would be a cool option too....

I have seen old SxSs (as in 1890s old) turned into DRs in 45-70 and at least one that was sort of a Cape gun with one shotgun barrel and one 45-70 barrel. The one I saw wasnt particularly well balanced. Im not sure how it was done; but Im guessing the 45-70 side started as a barrel blank permanently fixed in the right Shotgun barrel.

 

[EDELWEISS]

This thread reminded me of Buckstix thread about a SHORT Double Rifle or was it a LONG barrel Howdah Pistol with a stock? Today legal definitions determine the difference; but a short double rifle in 45-70 sounds cool

Short Barreled Double Rifles

Hello All, What is the shortest barrel length found on double rifles? I have heard there were "Howdah" doubles.

www.africahunting.com

 

[Papa72]

For me, .45-70 is the nearly perfect caliber for hogs in these dense piney woods PLUS the option to hunt with the Brenneke slugs so having the inserts permanently installed was never considered. 00 or #4 Buck option is nice too.

As stated, my plan is to shoot 405gr CAS loads at 1150fps with 1300fps as max to duplicate the original .45-70 pressures of 18,000-20,000#. At 27oz each, these .45-70 inserts feel robust but the 12ga bore limits the max diameter for any insert so a .458 bore is about as much metal that can be removed and still be safe. I would not hesitate to fire .30-30 or .35 Rem with factory loadings in a 12ga because there is more metal than the .45-70, obviously, so the insert’s chamber pressures can logically be higher. FACTORY loads, not Buffalo Bore or any +P anything.

Just IMHO!

 

[cajunchefray]

For me, .45-70 is the nearly perfect caliber for hogs in these dense piney woods PLUS the option to hunt with the Brenneke slugs so having the inserts permanently installed was never considered. 00 or #4 Buck option is nice too.

As stated, my plan is to shoot 405gr CAS loads at 1150fps with 1300fps as max to duplicate the original .45-70 pressures of 18,000-20,000#. At 27oz each, these .45-70 inserts feel robust but the 12ga bore limits the max diameter for any insert so a .458 bore is about as much metal that can be removed and still be safe. I would not hesitate to fire .30-30 or .35 Rem with factory loadings in a 12ga because there is more metal than the .45-70, obviously, so the insert’s chamber pressures can logically be higher. FACTORY loads, not Buffalo Bore or any +P anything.

Just IMHO!

Your setup is great. Now I need one!

I have a Huglu double, made before CZ imported them. I searched for 2 years to find one with double triggers and a POW stock. It fits perfectly.

Now I’m debating between 45-70 and .44 Magnum, though the latter is high pressure, but I can shoot warm.44 special load I shoot in my Ruger Blackhawk Flat Top. Plus I have all the reloading stuff for the. 44 magnum.


I’ll have my gunsmith check the firing pins before I buy. He has already told me that the Turks use good steel.

Hell maybe I need both!

 

[EDELWEISS]

I agree on the Cowboy loads. As for hogs, I have hunted with a Browning rifled bolt gun in 12ga and an amazingly accurate/regulated 20ga SxS using slugs. My first passion is a Double. I see the virtue of 12 AND 45-70 in the same gun. The question is are the inserts "repeatably" accurate/regulated when removed and replaced? My experience is that multi caliber/cartridge guns have multiple barrel sets.

Conversely if one has a short range expectation of say under 50 yards, perhaps they will work.

My hunting and shooting style has changed over the years. At one point I was seriously dedicated to long range precision shooting (a product of my duties in the Army). Now Ive come to understand the thrill of stalking close. Getting close is more exciting to me, than the actual shot. I dont hunt to fill the freezer, thats a happy bi-product. I hunt for the pleasure of the hunt and I enjoy it most when what I hunt can/will turn the hunt on me. Ive been charged by two and four legged beasts and nothing beats that thrill when youre the last one standing. Nothing is dangerous at 100 yards unless it has a AK....

 

[Papa72]

My observation is that when the SxS is locked, the breech end of the insert is held solidly at the receiver face akin to a 12ga shell’s rim. The o-rings at the muzzle end just help maintain center in the bore, of course. They must be affected by the insert’s harmonics at firing so act somewhat as a damper, but contributes to eventual wear…so I project POI shifts over time. I don’t know what rubber compound is in the o-rings Chiszel supplies but I suspect they’re Buna-N so I will source some Viton rings for their superior heat tolerance after these wear out.

50yds will be about max for this setup…and every other gun I own hunting in these woods.

 

[NDWoods]

That is a WILD project! So cool!

Props to you.

 

[F. Vaccaro]

I think the case length of the .45-70 is 2.105.
Some maybe Sharps, called it the .45-1/10.

 

[F. Vaccaro]

I think the case length of the .45-70 is 2.105.
Some maybe Sharps, called it the .45-1/10.

Rather .45-2-1/10?