A Westley Richards? Lee Speed On Gunbroker Not Mine

[sestoppelman]

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/856529442

Thought some might be interested in watching how this goes. I emailed a fella who is something of an expert on these and he had some concerns about some of the parts and vintage and authenticity of this rifle but said that if all claimed is true, it would be a valuable rifle.

 

[318AE]

It’s interesting... My WR Lee Speed has WR’s name and address on the barrel... This one the owner believes was rebarelled. The markings on the knoxform are different than mine as well. Mine has similar engraving, but lacks the BSA trade marks in the engraving.
These rifles were built byBSA/ Lee Speed and retailed by BSA and a number of sellers, including WR, Greener, Jeffery and many, many more. I’m not even sure the retailers regulated them. Really cool rifle never the less. I hope it finds an owner that enjoys it and shoots it often...

 

[sestoppelman]

This what my email correspondent told me. He helped me to identify and authenticate the London Small Arms "Lee Speed" I snagged at the LGS a few years ago. Love the old rifle.

Yes, Westley Richards made them (purchased actions or complete rifles from BSA and spiced them up). They are usually very nice. There are a few oddities about this one, however. I first saw this particular rifle back in 2008 when a correspondent of mine brought it out of South Africa (so we know it had some history there). I immediately thought it was strange that it has a safety on the bolt AND on the wrist…two safeties? Uh, no. Most likely that bolt has been replaced (though with a bolt from another commercial sporter), and I’d say it was likely rebarrelled too. The action and magazine and wood all look early (c1904-1914), but the barrel is SMLE pattern, which is later (even though the sights have been refitted). If —and this is a big “if”—41365 is really a Westley Richards serial number, then it falls correctly into their ledgers as being made between 1919 and 1929. That could be when the barrel was fitted… but there’s no way the receiver dates from that late. The BNP indicates it was reproofed after 1954.

There are three serial numbers on this gun. Two are visible in the photos, the third is underneath. This is certainly enough to raise some doubts and demand further research.

Also, there is not much evidence that this thing was made or retailed by Westley Richards. The “WR” likely stands for Weapon Registry. Westley Richards is a company that likes to put their (full) name on things. I see what might be a Triangle on the barrel, but WR usually put these on the action. Could be that WR did the rebarrelling, but they seem to have done a sloppy job on the markings.

In short, this thing has mostly genuine parts, but appears to be thrown together. If “WR” really did anything on this rifle, their ledgers would tell, but someone would have to pay eighty pounds for them to look it up and send a letter. I am surprised at the sloppiness of the markings and the odd shiny refinishing.

 

[sestoppelman]

Sold for just over $1900US!

 

[Red Leg]

This what my email correspondent told me. He helped me to identify and authenticate the London Small Arms "Lee Speed" I snagged at the LGS a few years ago. Love the old rifle.

Yes, Westley Richards made them (purchased actions or complete rifles from BSA and spiced them up). They are usually very nice. There are a few oddities about this one, however. I first saw this particular rifle back in 2008 when a correspondent of mine brought it out of South Africa (so we know it had some history there). I immediately thought it was strange that it has a safety on the bolt AND on the wrist…two safeties? Uh, no. Most likely that bolt has been replaced (though with a bolt from another commercial sporter), and I’d say it was likely rebarrelled too. The action and magazine and wood all look early (c1904-1914), but the barrel is SMLE pattern, which is later (even though the sights have been refitted). If —and this is a big “if”—41365 is really a Westley Richards serial number, then it falls correctly into their ledgers as being made between 1919 and 1929. That could be when the barrel was fitted… but there’s no way the receiver dates from that late. The BNP indicates it was reproofed after 1954.

There are three serial numbers on this gun. Two are visible in the photos, the third is underneath. This is certainly enough to raise some doubts and demand further research.

Also, there is not much evidence that this thing was made or retailed by Westley Richards. The “WR” likely stands for Weapon Registry. Westley Richards is a company that likes to put their (full) name on things. I see what might be a Triangle on the barrel, but WR usually put these on the action. Could be that WR did the rebarrelling, but they seem to have done a sloppy job on the markings.

In short, this thing has mostly genuine parts, but appears to be thrown together. If “WR” really did anything on this rifle, their ledgers would tell, but someone would have to pay eighty pounds for them to look it up and send a letter. I am surprised at the sloppiness of the markings and the odd shiny refinishing.

I agree. This is a "Frankengun" stitched together and apparently given a gloss blue finish to add insult to injury. I would not touch it at any price.

 

[Dewald]

WR followed by a nr was indeed stamped on many rifles in SA, if the serial number did not appear on the old licensing system. It stands for “wapen register” or weapons registry.

 

[Red Leg]

WR followed by a nr was indeed stamped on many rifles in SA, if the serial number did not appear on the old licensing system. It stands for “wapen register” or weapons registry.

I don't see a Westley Richards Provenance anywhere in the photographs of this rifle. Most have the retailer clearly spelled out on the action cover (I have a Jeffrey so marked). Moreover, I'm not sure it started out as a "Lee Speed" at all. Normally "Lee Speed Patent" appears where the BSA mark is regardless of who finished it.

Unfortunately, people are taken in by this sort of thing too often. We have a member of our forum (I'll leave his handle out) who periodically touts his his "re-bored" .318 Westley Richards (to 8mm no less - hard to re-bore from 8.6mm down to 8mm JS but don't let that impossibility impede wanting to believe) . What he actually bought at auction is a beater WR .318 action re-barreled with a Turkish military mauser barrel, all held together in an ersatz period stock. But it was listed at auction as an original WR .318 Accelerated Express re-bored to 8mm.

 

[sestoppelman]

My correspondent also opined that the bolt was a replacement as well as it has a safety on it and then a tang safety too. Not something one would expect to see.

 

[fourfive8]

I agree. This is a "Frankengun" stitched together and apparently given a gloss blue finish to add insult to injury. I would not touch it at any price.

Exactly. Yikes, $1900! You can tell from across the room that one spent a little too much time on the buffing wheel