A mystery pre-war 30-06 JP Sauer came home today

[buckstix]

A mystery pre-war 30-06 JP Sauer came home today

I didn't know a lot about this one other than I like the way it looked.

I though it had a miss-matched Bolt, but found that number on the Action also.

I assume this is between the Wars, but not sure of year of mfg.

Here are the specs..

21" Octagon to Round Barrel, Full Matt Rib to Ramp Front Site w/ Silver Bead
Lyman 35 Rear Site - (orig rear site on rib is milled down)
7 lb 6 oz
14" LOP
Type B Floor Plate Lever
Double-Set Triggers
Barrel Rib marked "Mod Mauser: J.P. Sauer & Son"
Barrel side marked "30 U.S.G.1906"
Barrel shank marked "Fluid Steel Krupp Essen"
Barrel marked "Crown N STMG / 10G"
Action and Barrel marked "182644"
Action marked "44580"
All Bolt parts marked "80"
blank brass escutcheon on bottom of stock
Braided Sling


as always comments and opinions are welcome ....

http://www.buckstix.com/buckpics/SAUER-06-000.jpg

 

[buckstix]

UPDATE ... I FOUND AN IDENTICAL RIFLE HERE - SAME FRONT SITE AND LYMAN 35 SITE - https://www.gunsinternational.com/g....cfm?gun_id=102267632&usource=lc&lctid=509172

 

[wvfred]

I believe these had Oberndorf actions and the 44580 serial number is the Oberndorf Mauser serial number.I have one simular but is in 8x57 and the serial 1121 number dates it to 1899 as it is a transitional intermediate small ring action.

 

[buckstix]

Yes .... I got this info from an expert on another forum. I find it hard to believe this gun is 112 years old, and still in such "Minty" condition.

"...The barrel was proofed for the 10 gramm = 150 gr .30-06 load.
44580 is the Mauser, Oberndorf commercial serial number. The position under the receiver shows the action only was intended for sale to another gunmaker, Sauer & Sohn here. It dates the action to 1911.
The Sauer & Sohn serial number 182644 shows the rifle was completed, barreled and stocked in 1912.
The sling is a recent, post-WW2 addition...."

 

[Themauserkid]

It’s a typical production model from Sauer, they have a handful of general models if you will, that they produced, however I don’t know of any official distinction between any of them, their catalogs certainly don’t make any. Some were short barreled half stocked, most were long, and roughly 7% that I’ve recorded are Stutzens. A lot of these were imported by Von Lengerke & Detmold and some are marked as such.

This example has been reblued as that is not what the original Sauer finish looks like unfortunately, but it is a nice rifle nevertheless. 1912 must have been a prolific year, as I have seen a decent amount in this serial range.

 

[buckstix]

​

Hello Themauserkid,

Not to be argumentative, but I have over 900+ guns in my collection, and I certainly can tell the difference between a re-blued gun, from one that has original finish. This rifle has NOT been re blued. It has the same finish as several of other early Oberndorf Mauser sporters.

 

[Themauserkid]

Hello,
I don’t mean to be either, but if it looks like an Oberndorf in hand, then you have most likely proven my point. Sauer receivers have a bone charcoal finish until roughly the early 1930’s, well past the 200k serial range. At that point they switched to rust blue, and ironically this is roughly the same time Oberndorf switched to salt blue. Out of the nearly 200 JP Sauer commercial Mausers I have recorded I have never seen an original blued receiver from the pre 1930’s. Perhaps in different light you can show the bone charcoal, but I don’t see it here. It is admittedly very difficult to photograph as it is very high polish and reflective.

They should exhibit a two tone effect, as the barrels are rust blued and contrast against the receiver. Nearly all the rifles show fully case hardened bolts up until the 1930’s as well. Here is an example of that original receiver finish, I’ll show the same rifle in three different types of light to illustrate the difficulty in capturing it. This one is from 1912 as well.

 

[buckstix]

Well, opinions are like belly-buttons - everyone has at least one. FYI, I use English Renaissance Wax on al my rifles, on both the wood and the metal to preserve them during long term storage. Its a Micro-Crystalline Wax and although its very, very, expensive, its worth it because it preserves and protects against moisture and finger prints. Its the same wax used by large museums around the world. It likely made the finish in my pictures look different than you expected. A question in place of a blatant comment would have clarified this. I get very sensitive over armchair experts throwing out unsubstantiated disparaging criticism about my collectables, instead of simply asking a question. This happens far too often on various forums, and as I said, I am very sensitive about this, and I don't like it.

Not too long ago I had a Forum Nazi comment that the pictures I had posted about a Mint 1890's Ballard Schuetzen rifle showed a re-lined barrel. When I went to sell the gun 5 years later, several potential buyers quoted that post and questioned my high selling price. Fortunately the final buyer was very pleased to find that the rifle was in fact 100% original. But that poster's comment needlessly scarred the rifle. nuff said !

 

[Themauserkid]

I know where you’re coming from and agree with that sentiment as well. However instead of making a baseless claim, I think I substantiated my claim fairly well, providing photographic evidence, information from my cataloging of JP Sauer Mausers for the last couple of decades, and asking for more pictures to clarify your point. I also admitted that it could be the lighting, and asked for further pictures.

Try different lighting to bring the color out. Here’s another showing the very blue luster the receiver should have, and the difference in tone with the barrel. Thanks in advance and happy collecting.

 

[buckstix]

However instead of making a baseless claim, I think I substantiated my claim fairly well, providing photographic evidence, information from my cataloging of JP Sauer Mausers for the last couple of decades, and asking for more pictures to clarify your point. I also admitted that it could be the lighting, and asked for further pictures.

Yes you did ..... after the fact !

 

[Hunter-Habib]

Rifle was built post 1912 pre 1939. After 1912, German rifle proof marks had begun to denote the bullet weight in grams.

 

[318AE]

“I didn't know a lot about this one other than I like the way it looked.”

“as always comments and opinions are welcome ....”

 

[pjaln]

Hello,
I don’t mean to be either, but if it looks like an Oberndorf in hand, then you have most likely proven my point. Sauer receivers have a bone charcoal finish until roughly the early 1930’s, well past the 200k serial range. At that point they switched to rust blue, and ironically this is roughly the same time Oberndorf switched to salt blue. Out of the nearly 200 JP Sauer commercial Mausers I have recorded I have never seen an original blued receiver from the pre 1930’s. Perhaps in different light you can show the bone charcoal, but I don’t see it here. It is admittedly very difficult to photograph as it is very high polish and reflective.

They should exhibit a two tone effect, as the barrels are rust blued and contrast against the receiver. Nearly all the rifles show fully case hardened bolts up until the 1930’s as well. Here is an example of that original receiver finish, I’ll show the same rifle in three different types of light to illustrate the difficulty in capturing it. This one is from 1912 as well.
View attachment 598861View attachment 598862View attachment 598863

this is a great example ,and yes I know the blue you are talking about

 

[buckstix]

Hello All,

Well, I got another JP Sauer today. This one is 8x57 caliber. I think this one might be an early one. It is cock on close and there is a little finger that helps hold the bolt handle down. (see third picture from the end) This one has stamps and numbers all over the place - I have shown all that I found. I will be happy to hear from someone that knows what they all mean. The stock looks as old as the rifle but its not like the one on the 30-06. I have slugged the bore and its .318 dia. Here are all the photos of the rifle and the markings. Do you think I could find a scope with the required mounting for this rifle?

 

[Themauserkid]

Sauer built on these very early transitional actions, I believe this is actually a model 97 action. Oberndorf serial 94, I have others recorded very close as well. The Sauer 70K series serial also agrees with a very early rifle. These early test actions were sold to other makers around this time, Rigby built on them too.

The 2,75g proof load is for the original thin case m88 load and also an indicator for how early it was proofed. The scope mounts are early Sauer proprietary, the only one I’ve seen on the loose for Mauser spacing (the way Sauer did it) belongs to Martin Krause. I have one for a Sauer but it’s not for a Mauser, I’ll dig up pictures of the ring style. This is similar looking to Rigby’s system as well. I assume the numbers on the mounts were pairing numbers to the hand fit rings. Also in this early period you see far more Sauer internal inspections as can be see on the barrel shank.

The stock originally would have looked like the other typical side paneled stocks etc, though the early ones had slightly different contours here and there, whereas the later guns are fairly standardized.

 

[hoytcanon]

Armchair, ottoman, popcorn... GO!

 

[Themauserkid]

In my hurry I overlooked the 27 under the bolt root etc, this rifle is numbered very odd for sure.. Has anyone seen Sauer apply an arbitrary assembly number to components before? Yours is near the earliest Sauer Mausers I’ve recorded, which are in the high 60k range. Sauer serials also float far more than Oberndorf for a number of reasons, so you can’t put as much stock in them. Another interesting note is that Sauer continued to use transitional components supplied from Oberndorf well past their “correct” timeframe. Ex, narrow gas vent bolts, often show up on many 1910 era rifles.

Here is an early Sauer scope, though the spacing is incorrect for a Mauser clearly. If you ever need any dimensions off of them, just let me know.

 

[buckstix]

Hello all,

Here's an update on the 8x57 Sauer. A fellow forum member told me that finding a scope with early JP Sauer rings would be like "cracking the lottery jackpot".

Well, I didn't crack the lottery jackpot, but thanks to fellow forum member "themauserkid" , he sold me his scope that is shown above, and I was able to fit it to this rifle. I can't begin to thank him enough. He said he bought it years ago because he recognized the rings as rare early JP Sauer type. Unfortunately the scope has been abused with a cracked lens, and crooked cross-hairs, and it is so cloudy that you can't see through it, but it sure makes he file look great. I am not sure it can be repaired, so I might just look for a different scope to put into the rings.

Perhaps someone can tell me something about the scope's maker.

http://www.buckstix.com/buckpi...7sauer-scope-000.jpg

 

[hoytcanon]

I've got a bucket of nuts and bolts that has been gathering dust and rust in a back corner of the barn I can sell you... cheap.

 

[Themauserkid]

If that bucket has nearly turn of the century JP Sauer rings in it, please contact me.

I’m not an optic collector so I can’t tell you much on CP. Goerz, other than they were a prime supplier to JP Sauer, starting early on. This catalog I pulled out is not super early, but here is an example of that relationship. I have an earlier catalog I can check as well, when I get more time to dig it out.