A military cartridge?

[Foxi]

A question to the experts among you :

Sometimes I see enthusiasts who walk with metal sondes over the fields to find some old stuff - and- also interesting things.
Yesterday I met one of them in our concession and he asked me why we hunters throw away so many shells ?
On my astonished face he showed me his find and said that he had recovered over 2 kg of shells in this field (2 km away from the village) in the course of the years.
That must be over 200 of them.
The signs on the ground tell me nothing at all, one resembles the British Pound (?).
But our area (20 KM west of Munich) was never a war zone, except for the Allied bombing raids. After the war we were occupied by the Americans.
In the middle is my 8x75 R ( rimmed from my Drilling) for comparison.
Can anyone tell me anything about these cartridges ?
Greetings + thanks
Foxi

Cartridges of the American troops ,Deutsche Wehrmacht or nothing else ?

 

[perttime]

Just confirming:
Is your cartridge 8x75R or 8x57R?

I think near 75 mm would be an unusual length for a military case.

 

[GuttormG]

The headstamp is from an arsenal at Ingolstadt, which I pretty close to Munchen.

 

[7x57Joe]

Not American but does seem to be a military headstamp. Looks to be 1991 vintage. Perhaps that ground was once a firing range for military or police but, every military range I was on, brass has to be policed after firing ended. The stylized E and the 7 are probably the key to manufacturer. I will dig into my books and try to determine the source.

 

[Foxi]

sorry spelling mistake
natural 8x57 R

the area has always been agricultural.
We've been running the hunting concession for over 30 years.
Nobody fired that shot but us, I guarantee you, not in that amount.
Maybe that's where he dumped his trash .

 

[7x57Joe]

The headstamp is from an arsenal at Ingolstadt, which I pretty close to Munchen.

Now I won't have to dig through my books.

 

[GuttormG]

sorry spelling mistake
natural 8x57 R

7,92x57i for the m88 rifles, produced at Jingolstadt July 1891

 

[Red Leg]

They look like standard German 8x57 military rounds to me. Any chance that the Wehrmacht had a training range in that area before WWII, or for that matter a Bavarian training range prior to or during WWI? The Bundeswehr changed over to 7.62 NATO almost immediately upon reconstituting the armed forces following the war. These rounds date from before WWI through the Second World War. It looks like a "P28" on the cartridge on the left. If so, that is the 1926-41 headstamp for Deutsche Waffen u. Munitionsfabriken A.-G. (DWM), Karlsruhe, Germany.

The photo in the close up is an older cartridge (as is the one on the right in the group photo). The two-digit number is the year - 1891; the single digit is the month - July; and the third letter is the manufacturer's code. It is Gothic, and I am not sure what it is. That coding was used through WWI. As @GuttormG notes, the older rounds would be for the m88.

 

[7x57Joe]

Well, I was just a century off!

 

[perttime]

7,92x57i for the m88 rifles, produced at Jingolstadt July 1891

The predecessor of 7.92x57, the Patrone 88? Makes sense.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrone_88

 

[Foxi]

Guys,
thank you all for your answers and interest.
I wonder how they got there and I never thought those shells would survive in the ground for more than 120 years.
From a time when the Wahehe uprising against the Germans broke out in Tanganyika and Benjamin Harrison was American president.

To the joy of my wife, they will now go into the garbage, unless one of you collects such things.

 

[Red Leg]

Guys,
thank you all for your answers and interest.
I wonder how they got there and I never thought those shells would survive in the ground for more than 120 years.
From a time when the Wahehe uprising against the Germans broke out in Tanganyka and Benjamin Harrison was American president.

If someone wants them, I will send them to him, otherwise they will probably go into the garbage (my wife would be happy )

Brass and its family of alloys are pretty indestructible - why all those Bronze Age artifacts are recoverable. Must have been some sort of training area there prior to WWII where troops conducted live-fire exercises.

 

[perttime]

Does the place look as if a shooting range might be feasible?

 

[Ridge Runner]

Why trash them?

Why not wait until you have more historical data?

Perhaps once the historical data has been affirmed donate the found "brass" with the information behind it to a museum by which others may learn or gaga/drool/dream/image/etc. over should it be discovered of some minute or major importance of forgotten history.

Maybe the area was a training range or a weird occurrence of events that lead to a skirmish between allied and Nazis/Axis forces, (perhaps an infamous, "friendly fire" event), during WW2/WWI.

After all two kegs of brass(?), something happened there, obviously.

As a history buff, I would want to learn more, be it a bust or something historically significant.

Perhaps it was a remote area where POWs, Spies, sympathizer, deserters, etc. were executed? Perhaps there is an unknown/forgotten mass grave in the area.

Two kegs! That is a lot of casings to say nothing happened there.

 

[Foxi]

Why trash them?

Why not wait until you have more historical data?

Perhaps once the historical data has been affirmed donate the found "brass" with the information behind it to a museum by which others may learn or gaga/drool/dream/image/etc. over should it be discovered of some minute or major importance of forgotten history.

Maybe the area was a training range or a weird occurrence of events that lead to a skirmish between allied and Nazis/Axis forces, (perhaps an infamous, "friendly fire" event), during WW2/WWI.

After all two kegs of brass(?), something happened there, obviously.

As a history buff, I would want to learn more, be it a bust or something historically significant.

Perhaps it was a remote area where POWs, Spies, sympathizer, deserters, etc. were executed? Perhaps there is an unknown/forgotten mass grave in the area.

Two kegs! That is a lot of casings to say nothing happened there.

You're absolutely right. Thanks for the input.
I'm going to do some research.
Every place has its local historian, so I'll start there.

@perttime

the brown fields in the far background are the site of the find.
Since I can remember, there were only potatoes, corn and wheat there.
Nothing else.

 

[perttime]

...

@perttime
View attachment 333242
the brown fields in the far background are the site of the find.
Since I can remember, there were only potatoes, corn and wheat there.
Nothing else.

You aren't 100 years old, I think. Looks like the car and nice dogs are standing on top of a very good back stop for a shooting range, and there are others in the background.

 

[Foxi]

"You aren't 100 years old, I think".
almost, but Im looking much better

 

[Royal27]

You're absolutely right. Thanks for the input.
I'm going to do some research.
Every place has its local historian, so I'll start there.

@perttime
View attachment 333242
the brown fields in the far background are the site of the find.
Since I can remember, there were only potatoes, corn and wheat there.
Nothing else.

I have nothing to add to this thread and no knowledge of what might have been there.

I will say though that I'm glad you're holding on to the "trash" until you at least figure out if there is any historical significance of which you may not know.

Even if just an old training site it's still pretty cool.

 

[Red Leg]

You're absolutely right. Thanks for the input.
I'm going to do some research.
Every place has its local historian, so I'll start there.

@perttime
View attachment 333242
the brown fields in the far background are the site of the find.
Since I can remember, there were only potatoes, corn and wheat there.
Nothing else.

Must have been a training area prior to WWII. Those cases were deposited over a nearly 70-year period. The M88 was retired before the First World War for the M98, and the Wehrmacht case indicates the area was still in use in the thirties. That would mean both Bavarian Regiments prior to 1914 and then Wehrmacht units prior to and perhaps during WWII.

They would have no collector value per se, but the archeological value is fascinating. Though finding someone locally with an interest in that period of Germany's past can still sometimes be a challenge.