6.5x54 SE rifle manufacturer/brand

[IHC-KB5]

Probably a dumb question but...

Does anyone manufacture a rifle chambered for 6.5x54 SE rounds? I love the M-S rifles, but interested in a new rifle for elk hunting with a non-creedmor 6.5x54.

Thanks!

 

[Major Bonkers]

Are we talking about the same thing? 6.5x54 is the typical Mannlicher-Schöenauer round, sometimes called the M-S, and the 6.5x55 is the Swedish round, known as the SE.

If you are after parts for an original Mannlicher, Herr Meidler seems to be the chap to get in touch with. His website is almost entirely in German. Usefully, he can sell you the tang safety catch so that you don't have to use the flag safety. I have, once, seen a 'new' Mannlicher from him appear at auction - the Dorotheum, I think it was - and I rather wish that I had bought it. The gunsmith specialising in them is Haygarth in the north of Scotland. He was 'by appointment' to the late Queen Mother; charming chap, but does not run to a web-site.

As I understand matters, there can be an issue with removing the barrel from the action which can lead to twisting the action if the gunsmith is not careful. Most barrels of original rifles have been shot through and typically suffer from throat erosion, hence need to be replaced.

Lee Butler has a pre-war takedown M-S rifle, retailed by Purdey with original case and 'scope, for sale. The $ is strong at the moment against the £, so you can probably get a good deal. Please don't bugger it up if you decide to buy it!

Otherwise, I suspect that a Ruger model 77 in the calibre is probably the closest to what you want.

 

[IHC-KB5]

MB,

Thanks for your response. You are correct, I do mean the M-S rounds and not the SE variety.

Most of the M-S 1903 rifles I have physically inspected have well-worn barrels and/or have been modified (poorly), hence the search for anyone manufacturing new action/barrels.

I am headed to Scotland in June and will attempt to connect with Haygarth.

Much appreciated,

Chris

 

[Brian Rothhammer]

The 6.5X54 MS (sometimes denoted as 6.5X53) was a proprietary cartridge developed for the Mannlicher Schoenauer M1900 as introduced at the Paris World's Fair of that year.

Rifles other than the Mannlicher Schoenauer M1900, M1903, Y1903 and variants are seldom encountered with the 6.5X54MS chambering and it does not interchange with others.

However, the 6.5X54 MS was directly descended from the 6.5X53R (6.5X53.5R) as used on several variants of Mannlicher's M1891 military straight pull (ruck-zuck) rifles and carbines. They are ballistically identical when loaded with the 160 grain RN projectile and to original specifications. Straight pull Mannlichers chambered in the 6.5X53R can be found in sporting form, usually built by 'bespoke' British gunmakers. 'Sporterized' military arms also exist.

The only difference between 6.5X53R and 6.5X54 MS (rimless) is that the rimmed version feeds through 'en bloc clips' (the original Mannlicher Packet Loading System) while rimless 6.5X54 MS feed through the Schoenauer rotary magazine. Other than case head they are the same cartridge.

Mannlicher Packet Loading System (En Bloc), loaded with spitzers

Schoenauer Magazine with 6.5X54 MS Cartridges


The M1900 was produced as prototype and 'sales samples' in effort to gain military contracts for the Mannlicher Schoenauer which resulted in contracts with the government of Greece. When Osterreichische Waffenfabriks Gesellschaft Steyr began production of the Greek contract in 1905, commercial sporting rifles entered production as the venerable M1903 as well as the M1905, chambered for the proprietary 9X56 MS, which would be joined in turn by the M1908 (8X56 MS) and M1910 (9.5X57 MS), each proprietary chamberings.

Greek military Mannlicher Schoenauers, all of which chambered the 6.5X54, were Y1903, Y1903/14, Y1903/14/27 'Breda', 'System 1930'. and variants.

'Greek' Mannlichers

In the not so distant past, military surplus Y1903 through 'System 1930' rifles and carbines were readily and inexpensively found at sporting goods shops across the U.S. and elsewhere. Many have since been 'sporterized' by craftsmen of skills ranging from 'Bubba' to the finest of gunsmiths.

For what purpose do you seek an M1903?

If you want the finest and intend to treat her well I'd advise searching for an original, unmolested, 'low miles', original pre WW2 M1903. If you desire 'optics', find one with a vintage 'scope already mounted that suits you.

The 'civilian' Mannlicher Schoenauers are considered by many to be among the finest commercial sporting rifles and carbines ever produced.

If you intend to travel with it, there was a marvelous Take Down Model built by Steyr (OWGS) on the system used by Westley Richards (I have an M1910 TD).

If you're looking for one to use hard I'd recommend finding an 'action' from or a semi complete Y1903 or variant and build your dream rifle from there. They are still around though not as inexpensive or plentiful, but the receiver and magazine of a Y1903 is identical to that of an M1903.

The cost of a newly manufactured MS receiver would surely exceed that of a complete 'project' based on a Y1903.

With the rising collector interest and diminishing supply, however, complete and unaltered 'Greek' Mannlichers are becoming expensive and it's a bit of a shame to cut up an original.

The 'Greek' carbines do make relatively light, accurate, short, and tough brush and bush rifles just as they were built. The same can be said of Straight Pull Mannlicher carbines (stutzen) which take the rimmed 6.5X53 R cartridge.

Ferdinand Ritter von Mannlicher


BR.

 

[SaintPanzer]

I also am a fan of this cartridge, and of Mannlicher Schönauer rifles in general.

As a side note: the reason it is sometimes referred to as a 6.5X53 is the difference between the Austrian and German systems of measurements. The Austrian way of measuring cartridge length will measure at the top of the rim (as in a rimmed case), while the German convention is to measure the whole case. Also, for those wanting to bring out their "Inner Cliff Clavin", the British will measure the barrel to the lands, while the rest of us to the grooves. That's why this .264 bullet is fired in the .256 Mannlicher.

But enough picking at nits. I see a couple of options, depending on how willing you are to search, spend, and build.

Option 1 is to troll the auction sites. I see these often on Gunbroker, as well many more of eGun.de. Johann Springer Erben sometimes lists them, and they have auctions as well. They also frequently show up at Rock Island Auctions. You should be able to find something with a good receiver and barrel, as well as sometimes a good scope. The better dealers/auction sites can set your mind at ease on barrel condition.

Herr Meidler has already been mentioned, he will happily build you a new one. https://www.miedler-waffen.at.

There are, of course, restorers, such as Dorleac & Dorleac. Even if you found an inexpensive "all used up" one, they could bring it back. https://www.dorleac-dorleac.com

Another option would be to contact Steyr directly, Some years ago, they were making "commemorative" 6.5s on their Safe Bolt System (SBS) action. These sometimes turn up on gunbroker. I know they have a custom shop, just tell them you want a Classic II chambered in 6.5X54.

Finally, the heresy: There are many custom makers that will make you anything you want, but it won't have the rotary magazine or the open bridge action. This may or may not be a benefit, depending on your point of view, but from that point forward, a 6.5mm barrel and the appropriate reamer are all you need.

 

[Major Bonkers]

Barrels from Sassen Engineering (previously Border Barrels). It's an open secret that the London gun trade use these. I suspect that Meidler will be cheaper.

Gavin Gardiner has two model 1903s coming up for auction at the end of the month: one, lot 63, ex-William Evans, is in obviously bad order and being sold for parts or a project; estimate £50 - 80. Note that English gunmakers will not copy over the 'William Evans' engraved on the old barrel to a new barrel: only the firm itself can legally do that. Lot 127 is a nice-looking stutzen in apparently good order, estimate £500 - 700; if interested, I'd budget for twice that as I suspect that he's under-estimated it.

Mr. Haygarth doesn't keep a stock of these rifles, and is (at least so far as I can see) a one man band. If you want work done, or to chew the fat, it would be sensible to get in touch with him first.

Be wary of eGun.de; it is not a proper auction site, where the auctioneer acts as an honest broker between buyer and seller, but is more like eBay where sellers describe their own wares. Uh-oh! My old father had the theory that otherwise honest and respectable people considered it perfectly acceptable to lie when they sold horses or cars: to which we can add firearms as well.

 

[Brian Rothhammer]

I also am a fan of this cartridge, and of Mannlicher Schönauer rifles in general.

As a side note: the reason it is sometimes referred to as a 6.5X53 is the difference between the Austrian and German systems of measurements. The Austrian way of measuring cartridge length will measure at the top of the rim (as in a rimmed case), while the German convention is to measure the whole case.

Back to the 'picking of nits' for a moment, the German firm DWM once packaged and labeled their 9.5X57 (DWM 531) as 9.5X56. To the British, of course, they were known as .375 Nitro Express Rimless 2.25" or .375 RNE (Rimless Nitro Express).

There are, of course, restorers, such as Dorleac & Dorleac. Even if you found an inexpensive "all used up" one, they could bring it back. https://www.dorleac-dorleac.com

Everything that I have seen from Dorleac has been superb, to say the least.
They are to firearms what a Duesenberg SSJ is to automobiles.

Finally, the heresy: There are many custom makers that will make you anything you want, but it won't have the rotary magazine or the open bridge action. This may or may not be a benefit, depending on your point of view, but from that point forward, a 6.5mm barrel and the appropriate reamer are all you need.

Not to mention the otherworldly smoothness of the pre WW2 Mannlicher Schoenauer.
What other firearm will close and fully lock its bolt by simply tilting the muzzle forward?

I. too. am an unashamed fan of the 'prewar' MS.

 

[saswart]

Some nice articles and info on the 6.5 ms above! Thanks

Have you considered the 6.5x57 mauser? There are more newer rifles chambered herein, Steyr Mannlicher I know for one.

 

[SaintPanzer]

Back to the 'picking of nits' for a moment, the German firm DWM once packaged and labeled their 9.5X57 (DWM 531) as 9.5X56. To the British, of course, they were known as .375 Nitro Express Rimless 2.25" or .375 RNE (Rimless Nitro Express).

Yes, of course, as that is what the Austrians were calling them at the time, and DWM was selling in Austria. Of course, then came more complete "standardization", and here we are.

 

[SaintPanzer]

Be wary of eGun.de; it is not a proper auction site, where the auctioneer acts as an honest broker between buyer and seller, but is more like eBay where sellers describe their own wares. Uh-oh! My old father had the theory that otherwise honest and respectable people considered it perfectly acceptable to lie when they sold horses or cars: to which we can add firearms as well.

That is a very good point about eGun, but I'd like to add that it's easy to tell who the private sellers are, and who the firearms dealers are, and so you can be a bit more "specific" in you selections. It is also true that many dealers are handling "estate sales", and others are more private.