500 S&W "Brass Lodged"

[Daniel Cary]

Original Purchased new, 2003, never any issues. One occasion, 400 Grn "Mono Metal" 1700fps Brass got lodged in the cylinder after firing all 5. Needed a rod to tap out each piece, no problems since. Reputable manufacturer, on here I believe, and no problems since. Their response to this particular problem was .. ridiculous.

Anyone ever have this problem?
Thank you.

 

[calling4life]

I have one, haven't had the issue, but yes, have heard of it from hot loads.

Of course, the number one thing asked is, when you look in your chamber holes in the cylinder, do you see any pitting or anything like that?

But the recommendation regardless tends to be to hone those chambers, everything from some steel wool with motor oil on it to actually buying a hone.
This one can be thrown in a drill and they have several different grits depending upon the finish you are trying to achieve.

And while 1700fps for a 400gr bullet doesn't tend to sound overly hot for these, one needs to remember that those bullets are longer because they are solid copper, it may, in reality compare more to a 500gr hardcast.

And pushing a 500gr hardcast 1700 would be very hot, especially with how deep that looks to be seated.

One of the things I've seen done is loading long, these guns have large cylinders, so one may as well use the space, so you load the bullet out, thereby allowing more powder and more speed without going crazy on pressure.

But, the bullet has to have the grooves to allow loading like that and one needs to be mindful of bullets jumping due to recoil, so they need to be crimped as though you're trying to keep even God from being able to separate the bullet and case.

Or so I've read, and discussed, and read some more, I don't reload.

 

[Daniel Cary]

I have one, haven't had the issue, but yes, have heard of it from hot loads.

Of course, the number one thing asked is, when you look in your chamber holes in the cylinder, do you see any pitting or anything like that?

But the recommendation regardless tends to be to hone those chambers, everything from some steel wool with motor oil on it to actually buying a hone.
This one can be thrown in a drill and they have several different grits depending upon the finish you are trying to achieve.

View attachment 567652

And while 1700fps for a 400gr bullet doesn't tend to sound overly hot for these, one needs to remember that those bullets are longer because they are solid copper, it may, in reality compare more to a 500gr hardcast.

And pushing a 500gr hardcast 1700 would be very hot, especially with how deep that looks to be seated.

One of the things I've seen done is loading long, these guns have large cylinders, so one may as well use the space, so you load the bullet out, thereby allowing more powder and more speed without going crazy on pressure.

But, the bullet has to have the grooves to allow loading like that and one needs to be mindful of bullets jumping due to recoil, so they need to be crimped as though you're trying to keep even God from being able to separate the bullet and case.

Or so I've read, and discussed, and read some more, I don't reload.

Thank you, the link & information.
it naturally caused concern .. Cor-Bon/Hornady had No availability back then .. I've had great results with this mfr. but I believe that was the only available load & the 1st Mono-Metal projectile they utilized. Perhaps better suited for long guns?

dust in the bottom two ..

 

[calling4life]

So I shoot a load with those cutting edge bullets solids right now, it's from Aria Ballistics, I decided to give them a shot, and from my experience I'd tend to say, proceed with caution, but we'll shelf that, I've got a couple new loads to test before I determine whether I'd completely trust them.

The load I have from them is advertised at 1800fps, that's from that same gun you have, 8 3/8 or whatever barrel length.

My gun has a custom 1/12 twist 4" 'ish, I suppose barrel, 5" total length or thereabouts including my little muzzle brake on it.
I got around 1500fps out of that load through my gun.

So I didn't mean to say that that load is definitely too hot, just to note that, as an all copper solid, that bullet will be longer in comparison to a normal lead hardcast, and therefore speed vs pressure may be deceiving.

The Aria Ballistics load, by the way, has the bullet seated out a good bit further, so, yes, it's claimed 1800fps vs your 1700fps, which means it should be higher pressure, but given seating depth, we don't know that.

Anyways.

What a guy does see that concerns me a bit is your extractor star, between those bottom two cylinders, not only does that point look cracked but the gap between that star point and the cylinder looks blown out on the left side as we look at it.

Further between the star point on the lower right chamber and the right chamber, inside that right chamber, the inside corner looks as though it's missing.

See to what I refer, just above the yellow lines I've drawn, those areas concern me. I actually went and pulled my 500 out to check and mine has none of that. That may be evidence of shooting very hot rounds, may just be abuse in general, I can't know, perhaps it's just the lighting or something, but it would concern me.

Has that gun ever been fired and had a primer blow, or multiple primers blow in those chambers?

I'm not a gunsmith, so I don't rightly know what could cause that or if it is something that should be of great concern, but it'd concern me enough I'd be talking to a smith. May not be a difficult part to replace.

 

[calling4life]

And for what it's worth, if I had problems with extraction, I'd be running one of those hones through my bore as a "let's see if I can fix this."

It may, may not, but the reason I knew of them is because I've heard of extraction issues and I researched and prepared for what I'd do.

My gun has been worked on by 3 different gunsmiths though, I didn't pay them specifically to do anything with the chambers, but as part of their different packages, they may have. That might be why mine has been fine thus far.

 

[RIDE-RED350r]

I own a S&W 460V (5" barrel). I bought it lightly used about 10 years ago and brought it home with a couple boxes of factory Hornady ammo as I wasn't yet tooled and supplied to make my own for it.

With the Hornady factory stuff, I would sometimes get as many as three out of five that I would have to tap the empties out with a screwdriver. Then as I began working up my hand loads to the max of the more conservative of the two pieces of published data I was working with, I had the same issue when I reached the max published load. I backed it off .5gr and now I can eject all 5 as normal.

Two points:
1- the 460 and 500 Smith are running 60k+ psi when loaded to the max. Any small inconsistencies from one revolver to the next can run you into these issues even when the deviations are still within acceptable tolerances.

2- after a good bit of research and consulting with more experienced hands in various forums and such, it was fairly well agreed upon that my particular revolver likely has chamber throats on the tighter side of the acceptable tolerance. I never fire 454 Casull or 45 Colt rounds in my X-Frame because I don't want the headache of making sure all traces of residue from the shorter rounds are cleaned out before firing the 460 rounds again which can tip things into overpressure territory.

So since backing down my charge just a pinch, I've had no issues whatsoever and my 240gr XTP Mags are still clocking north of 1800fps through the chrony. Pretty impressive for a 5" barrel which is really effectively only 4" considering they count the full compensator as barrel length.

 

[Daniel Cary]

And for what it's worth, if I had problems with extraction, I'd be running one of those hones through my bore as a "let's see if I can fix this."

It may, may not, but the reason I knew of them is because I've heard of extraction issues and I researched and prepared for what I'd do.

My gun has been worked on by 3 different gunsmiths though, I didn't pay them specifically to do anything with the chambers, but as part of their different packages, they may have. That might be why mine has been fine thus far.

Thank you!!! lets try to take a look. .. the only erroneous thing that happened on 2 accounts. One with me & another individual shot it & it .. double tapped.

 

[Daniel Cary]

What I've never noticed is the pattern difference? .. though it feels, equally seated .. ? @RIDE-RED350r

I chalked the Double tap due to poor shooting ?
I need daylight.

 

[RIDE-RED350r]

Looks normal to my eye. Though your drive spurs look a bit hammered.

Double tapping is known to have happened with heavy full house loads in the X-Frames, particularly with the 500. It's never happened to me with my 460, and I don't think I've ever come close to it either. Probably because I mainly run 240gr bullets in it. If I were to try the heaviest .452 I could find and load them up to full throttle I suspect it might be possible.

I might still try backing your charge down .5gr or so and see if it still occurs.

 

[Daniel Cary]

Looks normal to my eye. Though your drive spurs look a bit hammered.

Double tapping is known to have happened with heavy full house loads in the X-Frames, particularly with the 500. It's never happened to me with my 460, and I don't think I've ever come close to it either. Probably because I mainly run 240gr bullets in it. If I were to try the heaviest .452 I could find and load them up to full throttle I suspect it might be possible.

I might still try backing your charge down .5gr or so and see if it still occurs.

These cell phone cameras can pic up more detail than my RX glasses at times. I did use it again after this "Sticky Brass" situation, long ago now, will have someone look at it & recommend honing however!
The only other ammo used were Hornady's 350's, Cor-Bons 440? & a 350 from this mfr. "Just had to set these Mono-Metal's aside"

It's been a long time since personal use but had no idea how many mfr & options there are now for the 500, since it's introduction ..
Thanks again for corresponding.
Dan.

 

[Forrest Halley]

another individual shot it & it .. double tapped.

The double tap is caused by the shooter's (poor) recoil management allowing the their grip to relax enough to reset the trigger and the body's subconscious reflex to return the trigger to the last commanded position firing the gun again. The double taps that have been recorded all seem to show the gun rise rapidly in initial recoil and then firing a second time about mid rise causing a wild flip of the muzzle to vertical or beyond.

 

[RIDE-RED350r]

I know of at least one documented case where someone thought it would be funny to put a 500 in the hands of an inexperienced shooter. Unfortunately she was killed by the double tap.

Pretty easy to find vids on YouTube showing double taps too.

 

[Daniel Cary]

I know of at least one documented case where someone thought it would be funny to put a 500 in the hands of an inexperienced shooter. Unfortunately she was killed by the double tap.

Pretty easy to find vids on YouTube showing double taps too.

I have seen such videos .. trauma but death, I had no idea. It happened on 3 accounts I can recall, with experienced acquaintances and once myself.

I don't remember becoming really accurate with it, exception 350grn Hornady JHP.
Enough practice certainly can make you well rounded with 1911's ? It's shelved, but an exceptional machine.

 

[Velo Dog]

Fellow Handgunners,

When I worked in a gun store, at least twice, (while I was on shift) people brought in revolvers, with their cylinders totally immovable, from firing only their very first round of Core-Bon ammunition.

I have also seen over my lifetime, revolvers with “peened” ratchets and loosened cylinders, from a steady diet of “hot” ammunition.

When I was a Police Officer, I experienced a split forcing cone in the K-Frame (Model 13) revolver issued to me, from my feeding it a steady diet of Federal brand, 125 gr factory .357 Magnum ammunition.

This was over the course of several years but nonetheless, the base of the barrel split from heat and stress of too much cartridge, for that little K-Frame revolver.

I gather from seeing those occurrences that:

1.
Revolver design is not well suited to extreme chamber pressure.
2.
Core-Bon ammunition is (or at least was 20 years ago) loaded to extreme pressure.

Stay On That Front Sight,
Velo Dog.

 

[Justbryan]

Rifle Lewis Lead Remover Kit For 50 Caliber

Brownells #516101050

MFR #LEWIS LEAD REMOVER KIT

UPC 050806106956

This is for a rifle. They make a pistol kit and these disk should work on a pistol kit. Call Brownells for better answer. I had a pistol that would stick if not cleaned thoroughly with Lewis kit.

 

[Forrest Halley]

I know of at least one documented case where someone thought it would be funny to put a 500 in the hands of an inexperienced shooter. Unfortunately she was killed by the double tap.

Pretty easy to find vids on YouTube showing double taps too.

I had forgotten about this. Very sad.

Fellow Handgunners,

When I worked in a gun store, at least twice, (while I was on shift) people brought in revolvers, with their cylinders totally immovable, from firing only their very first round of Core-Bon ammunition.

I have also seen over my lifetime, revolvers with “peened” ratchets and loosened cylinders, from a steady diet of “hot” ammunition.

When I was a Police Officer, I experienced a split forcing cone in the K-Frame (Model 13) revolver issued to me, from my feeding it a steady diet of Federal brand, 125 gr factory .357 Magnum ammunition.

This was over the course of several years but nonetheless, the base of the barrel split from heat and stress of too much cartridge, for that little K-Frame revolver.

I gather from seeing those occurrences that:

1.
Revolver design is not well suited to extreme chamber pressure.
2.
Core-Bon ammunition is (or at least was 20 years ago) loaded to extreme pressure.

Stay On That Front Sight,
Velo Dog.

So the K-frames were prone to cracked forcing cones. The 13 and the 19 were often victims of this with the 66 being less noteworthy likely due to people figuring it out ahead of time in the other models.
The peening of the ratchets is a new one on me (I was raised in a S&W family and taught not to beat up the .357's), but the loose cylinder is an easy fix with either shims or a very cool crane stretcher that I saw an old gunsmith use once. It was like a pipe cutter, but the blade was replaced with something to draw the metal out.

 

[RIDE-RED350r]

I had forgotten about this. Very sad.

So the K-frames were prone to cracked forcing cones. The 13 and the 19 were often victims of this with the 66 being less noteworthy likely due to people figuring it out ahead of time in the other models.
The peening of the ratchets is a new one on me (I was raised in a S&W family and taught not to beat up the .357's), but the loose cylinder is an easy fix with either shims or a very cool crane stretcher that I saw an old gunsmith use once. It was like a pipe cutter, but the blade was replaced with something to draw the metal out.

Yes, I have a couple P&R model 19 and I stick with nothing lighter than 140gr bullets in those, mostly use 158gr and nothing over book max, which many say is milder than the 357 Mag loads of its earlier days.

The K-Frame forcing cone is thin compared to an L-Frame and has a flat on the bottom. I've seen it said that the crack from too many rounds of light bullets at full throttle frequently occured at that flat section of the forcing cone.

 

[Velo Dog]

(I was raised in a S&W family and taught not to beat up the .357's)

(And I was taught to abide within my employer’s written policy, even though it meant having to carry their poor choice of issue sidearm).

 

[Forrest Halley]

Yes, I have a couple P&R model 19 and I stick with nothing lighter than 140gr bullets in those, mostly use 158gr and nothing over book max, which many say is milder than the 357 Mag loads of its earlier days.

The K-Frame forcing cone is thin compared to an L-Frame and has a flat on the bottom. I've seen it said that the crack from too many rounds of light bullets at full throttle frequently occured at that flat section of the forcing cone.

The flat on the bottom was to clear the swing of the crane as the cylinder locked into the frame. A weakness for sure, but the charge hole spacing on the K frame made reloads slick and fast.

(And I was taught to abide within my employer’s written policy, even though it meant having to carry their poor choice of issue sidearm).

That's a sad story there. Nothing quite so fun as being limited by a bureaucrat with little to no operational perspective.