.500 NE Reloading - Noobie Questions

[A Rosenth]

Thank you everyone for your helpful advice! There are a few more things I am thinking about:

• That max pressure question – I see Hodgdon reloading data with pressures above 40k PSI. Is that understood to be relatively safe?
• On the max pressure note, are there any pressure signs to be aware of besides flattened primers?
• Does bullet seating tend to have a significant impact? I’ve seen this make a big difference in modern cartridges, but is it also a significant factor in DRs?
• Finally, barrel life – is there any (general) consensus on barrel life for a modern DR?

Thanks again for your help!

 

[AZDAVE]

Like everyone else I have heard that a 4th addition of his book is coming out but I have no idea when it will be released.

 

[frog stealer]

I’ve had good luck with nitro for black loads in my Heym 577, give these a try (from Graeme’s book):

 

[Rafiki]

Thank you everyone for your helpful advice! There are a few more things I am thinking about:

• That max pressure question – I see Hodgdon reloading data with pressures above 40k PSI. Is that understood to be relatively safe?
• On the max pressure note, are there any pressure signs to be aware of besides flattened primers?
• Does bullet seating tend to have a significant impact? I’ve seen this make a big difference in modern cartridges, but is it also a significant factor in DRs?
• Finally, barrel life – is there any (general) consensus on barrel life for a modern DR?

Thanks again for your help!

Seating depth definitely has implications on pressure. I mentioned somewhere here that pressure goes up as freespace is reduced so if you seat the bullet deeper pressure increases. Conversely the shallower you seat pressure is reduced. Of course there are limits to that because of coming in contact with the lands; YOU DO NOT WANT TO DO THAT! This is because without a "jump" to engrave you basically have a blockage to overcome. It doesn't need to be much but for safety sake there needs to be some. Banded bullets (CEB, Northfork, Barns and the like) are supposed to be more forgiving.

40k is OK unless it's an antique.

Barrel life? you wont be shooting this bruiser enough to worry about it. That said, when shooting paper choose lead or soft copper jacketed (Hawks come to mind); heck, they are cheaper anyway. Sometimes I use paper patched bullets; they are actually fun to shoot and amazingly accurate.

 

[Just a dude in BC]

A note on flattened or cratered primers vs pressure vs bolt thrust vs action strength.

1. Primers are flattened by pressure from the case.
2. Bolt or action thrust, is the amount of force the base of the case pushes against the bolt or action. It comes from the pressure in the cartridge, pressing at the back of the case. So it is a function of the area of the bottom inside of the case, times the pressure. On a 500 NE it is probably about something like 1/3 of an inch. So at 40kpsi, the bolt thrust is something like 13,000 lb of force.
3. Different action designs are stronger than others. With leaver action / break actions being some of the weaker ones, and bolt / falling block actions being some of the stronger ones.

What does this mean?
Well, despite being a low pressure round, the 500ne puts a lot of strain on the action, simply due to the size of the area at that low pressure. So lots of force, regardless of pressure.
The problem with this is that the primers you use, are probably standard magnum large rifle primers. which go in things like 458 win mags, 375 h&h, and the like. Those carts have pressures around 60kpsi. Subsequently primers wont start to flatten out until around 55kpsi - 58kpsi, and the real flattening starts taking place between 60kpsi-65kpsi.

So.... Do not use primer flattening as a gauge for over pressure in any gun which has low pressure standards. This is virtually all Nitro express cartridges, and many rimmed carts as well.

 

[A Rosenth]

A note on flattened or cratered primers vs pressure vs bolt thrust vs action strength.

1. Primers are flattened by pressure from the case.
2. Bolt or action thrust, is the amount of force the base of the case pushes against the bolt or action. It comes from the pressure in the cartridge, pressing at the back of the case. So it is a function of the area of the bottom inside of the case, times the pressure. On a 500 NE it is probably about something like 1/3 of an inch. So at 40kpsi, the bolt thrust is something like 13,000 lb of force.
3. Different action designs are stronger than others. With leaver action / break actions being some of the weaker ones, and bolt / falling block actions being some of the stronger ones.

What does this mean?
Well, despite being a low pressure round, the 500ne puts a lot of strain on the action, simply due to the size of the area at that low pressure. So lots of force, regardless of pressure.
The problem with this is that the primers you use, are probably standard magnum large rifle primers. which go in things like 458 win mags, 375 h&h, and the like. Those carts have pressures around 60kpsi. Subsequently primers wont start to flatten out until around 55kpsi - 58kpsi, and the real flattening starts taking place between 60kpsi-65kpsi.

So.... Do not use primer flattening as a gauge for over pressure in any gun which has low pressure standards. This is virtually all Nitro express cartridges, and many rimmed carts as well.

Thanks, very good info to keep in mind! With that said it seems like one should just start low and work up slowly, with 2150 fps basically being the goal. Regardless of velocity, never exceed the max load indicated in reloading sources! Hopefully following those guidelines one will be able to keep below max pressure...

 

[VertigoBE]

Picking this thread back up.

I have never reloaded in my life. Yet for my .500NE I have no choice but to reload. What would be the list of gear to get, to reload well for this (and perhaps .458 , .416 , 375, etc.) ?

 

[Rare Breed]

Seating depth definitely has implications on pressure. I mentioned somewhere here that pressure goes up as freespace is reduced so if you seat the bullet deeper pressure increases. Conversely the shallower you seat pressure is reduced. Of course there are limits to that because of coming in contact with the lands; YOU DO NOT WANT TO DO THAT! This is because without a "jump" to engrave you basically have a blockage to overcome. It doesn't need to be much but for safety sake there needs to be some. Banded bullets (CEB, Northfork, Barns and the like) are supposed to be more forgiving.

40k is OK unless it's an antique.

Barrel life? you wont be shooting this bruiser enough to worry about it. That said, when shooting paper choose lead or soft copper jacketed (Hawks come to mind); heck, they are cheaper anyway. Sometimes I use paper patched bullets; they are actually fun to shoot and amazingly accurate.

While this is obvious to DR reloaded I do want to remind you fillers will be required with RL15.5 and IMR3031 and anything under 90% fill. I always go to Trader Keith and buy #2 fillers. perfect fit and little pressure added

 

[Rafiki]

I read somewhere that QL doesn't work well for straight wall cartridges, so info from it tends to be unrealiable for these older big bores. Do you know if there's any truth to that?

Yes, QL states somewhere that it calculates about +10% for straight walled cases. I shoot mostly straight wall cartridges and that seems to be true ,,,, but NEVER rely on that.

 

[AZDAVE]

Well your are going to need a press that is big enough for large NE cases
1. On the low end is the Lee single stage 50 BMG press on the higher end is a single stage Lyman, RCBS, or hornaday 50 BMG presses. They are all single stage presses that will handle any sporting cartridge made.

2. a set or reloading dies for each of the rounds you plan on loading for. don't forget shell holders for each

3. A powder scale

4. A powder measure.

5. A Hand primer to start with.

6. the case prep and cleaning tool kit

7. Brass, bullets, primers, and powder for the Cartridges you are loading for.

8. Set of Dial indicators

9. Bullet puller.

10. A buddy that has been reloading for years that can walk you through basic reloading. Reload a bolt gun standard round say 200 or so.

11. When you want to start reloading the 500 NE for your double, call one of us here on AH that have been loading for doubles, have a hour or two to walk through developing loads that shot to the regulation of your double.

12. Lots of patience!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

13. A healthy respect for loading solid reliable SAFE ammo.

That will be enough to get you started.

 

[grand veneur]

Under no circumstances would I start reloading by loading without experience cartridges caliber 500 Nitro Express. I know what I am talking about, I had 30 years of reloading experience behind me when I started reloading the cartridges 577 Nitro Express and 600 Nitro Express. At first I had some problems with both cartridges.

 

[VertigoBE]

Perhaps to explain, I will not be developing loads, nor d*cking around with different formulas. Thanks to a friend of @Frederik I have the perfect bullet, case, powder and primer combination. I just need to be able to duplicate that exact formula x100 or so

 

[grand veneur]

Perhaps to explain, I will not be developing loads, nor d*cking around with different formulas. Thanks to a friend of @Frederik I have the perfect bullet, case, powder and primer combination. I just need to be able to duplicate that exact formula x100 or so

The problem with such cartridges is that you cannot use the loading data from many manuals without worrying. These cartridges were intended to be loaded first with Black Powder and later with Cordite, which in both cases required large capacity cases. Many people mean that with modern powders you can get around the problem by using very progressive powder to achieve a safe filling of the case. But it's not that simple. Sometimes powders load are specified that no longer fit into the cases, or if so, it is no space left for the bullet. Graeme Wright books are extremely helpful, but are unfortunately difficult to find nowadays. No matter what, if you want to get started with reloading, practice briefly with cartridges that are easy to load and ask for advice and loading data for the 500 Nitro Express cartridge. Since there are only very nice people on this forum, we will help you.

 

[Rare Breed]

Agree. In particular you will be dealing with case filler materials each type causes different internal pressures. I learned it was worth every penny extra to buy fillers at Trader Keith in #2 for both my 470 and 500 NE when as you saw my earlier post understanding recoil, FPS and powder loads.

 

[deewayne2003]

Agree. In particular you will be dealing with case filler materials each type causes different internal pressures. I learned it was worth every penny extra to buy fillers at Trader Keith in #2 for both my 470 and 500 NE when as you saw my earlier post understanding recoil, FPS and powder loads.

Agreed!… I have seen pressure testing where they used the exact same load for .470ne and the only variable was the filler.

Dacron produced the highest pressure and open cell foam wads produced the lowest pressure.

I have also seen an article where they pulled several rounds loaded with Dacron and the powder making contact with the Dacron had melted into the powder from some sort of chemical reaction.

I switched to foam wads and never looked back, plus you save the time of weighing Dacron.

 

[A Rosenth]

Perhaps to explain, I will not be developing loads, nor d*cking around with different formulas. Thanks to a friend of @Frederik I have the perfect bullet, case, powder and primer combination. I just need to be able to duplicate that exact formula x100 or so

Glad to see some more discussion on this thread! I had previously reloaded 30-06 and went through a lot of the begginer questions and mistakes in doing so. When I bought the 500 NE I realized there is a whole other set of questions and potential mistakes one can make when dealing with double rifles! I did a lot of research and had back and forth with some of the guys on here. As has been mentioned, the biggest area of difficulty/controversy is around fillers. I've loaded some with and some without (using different powders) and had a couple of phone calls with Ken Owens about what I was seeing in terms of potential pressure signs (there's another thread on here about that). Ultimately I feel like the loads I've developed so far are safe.

My current go-to is the 570 gn barnes TSX loaded with H4350. Feels very safe in terms of pressure and also doesn't really kick that hard (relatively speaking). Regulates pretty well too, but need to do a little more testing (I've found that I need to be shooting right around or below 2000 fps to regulate properly). One side note: the spec of 2150 fps for the 500 NE was apparently derived from manufacturers using test rifles with much longer barrels than most DRs (like 28+ inches). With shorter barrels, you have to pack more powder in to get that kind of velocity, which may not be what your rifle likes/needs in terms of proper regulation. I've found that factory ammo doesn't regulate properly (bullets crossing horizontally) - in practice this is fine because they're close enough at hunting range, but it means that the velocity is too high. All this to say that you don't necessarily need to try and reach that 2150 fps mark - your rifle might prefer to shoot slower, which in turn will require less powder and generate less recoil, so it's a win-win.

My specific advice to the quoted post here is this: never take someone else's load data and assume it's safe! Always start at least a few grains lower at first, and then work up to the specified load. All guns are different and what is safe in one rifle might be overpressure in another. Unless the load you have in mind was specifically developed for YOUR rifle you should definitely not assume it's good to go. Feel free to reach out if you do down this rabbit hole - I (and/or others) can probably save you a bunch of time and headaches.

 

[VertigoBE]

Glad to see some more discussion on this thread! I had previously reloaded 30-06 and went through a lot of the begginer questions and mistakes in doing so. When I bought the 500 NE I realized there is a whole other set of questions and potential mistakes one can make when dealing with double rifles! I did a lot of research and had back and forth with some of the guys on here. As has been mentioned, the biggest area of difficulty/controversy is around fillers. I've loaded some with and some without (using different powders) and had a couple of phone calls with Ken Owens about what I was seeing in terms of potential pressure signs (there's another thread on here about that). Ultimately I feel like the loads I've developed so far are safe.

My current go-to is the 570 gn barnes TSX loaded with H4350. Feels very safe in terms of pressure and also doesn't really kick that hard (relatively speaking). Regulates pretty well too, but need to do a little more testing (I've found that I need to be shooting right around or below 2000 fps to regulate properly). One side note: the spec of 2150 fps for the 500 NE was apparently derived from manufacturers using test rifles with much longer barrels than most DRs (like 28+ inches). With shorter barrels, you have to pack more powder in to get that kind of velocity, which may not be what your rifle likes/needs in terms of proper regulation. I've found that factory ammo doesn't regulate properly (bullets crossing horizontally) - in practice this is fine because they're close enough at hunting range, but it means that the velocity is too high. All this to say that you don't necessarily need to try and reach that 2150 fps mark - your rifle might prefer to shoot slower, which in turn will require less powder and generate less recoil, so it's a win-win.

My specific advice to the quoted post here is this: never take someone else's load data and assume it's safe! Always start at least a few grains lower at first, and then work up to the specified load. All guns are different and what is safe in one rifle might be overpressure in another. Unless the load you have in mind was specifically developed for YOUR rifle you should definitely not assume it's good to go. Feel free to reach out if you do down this rabbit hole - I (and/or others) can probably save you a bunch of time and headaches.

It actually was developed exactly for my rifle. We tested it in SA 2 weeks ago. He had produced 5 sets of 4 rounds each with a slightly incremental nb of grains.

In the end the following load won out, producing a nice horizontal RxL 3/4 inch group at 30m:
- Norma cases
- Safari Bullet Company Softs in 570grains
- 95 grains of Vitavouri N540
(I need to find back which primer he used)

Three days later I shot an ancient buffalo cow with it at 59m with iron sights.
Once I have a red dot installed on it, I think I'll be comfortable with it up to 75m.

 

[Tintin]

Like everyone else I have heard that a 4th addition of his book is coming out but I have no idea when it will be released.

The 4th Ed of Shooting the British Double Rifle is currentlly at the printers, so not far away.

 

[VertigoBE]

To all the experts here, I could use your input,

On the equipment side, perhaps trying to take advantage of the current sale prices:

- Area 419 Zero press, currently -15% @ 1317€ https://www.brownells-deutschland.de/THE-ZERO-TURRET-PRESS-ZERO-Turret-Press-AREA-419-100041060

- RCBS Ammomaster 2, currently -29% @ 507€ https://www.brownells-deutschland.de/AMMOMASTER-2-RELOADING-PRESS-RCBS-749010595

- RCBS Ammomaster 50BMG pack @ 1080€ https://www.brownells-deutschland.de/AMMOMASTER-50-BMG-PACK-RCBS-749010559

- Redding Big Boss II @ 439€ https://www.brownells-deutschland.de/Redding-BIG-BOSS-II-RELOADING-PRESS-749008146

- Prazipress 150mm @ 1099€

These are about all the options I found that would accept .500NE cases for reloading.

Any suggestions what I should go for? I do like buying quality "you only cry once", but don't want to overspend for things I don't need either.

 

[Scanos]

I load for the .500 NE with a Redding Big Boss II. It may be the cheapest of those you listed but it is a fine press. I load for several large magnum cases with it including: .500 NE, .500 Jeffery, .470 Capstick, .400 H&H etc.