500/416 NE

[norfolk shooter]

Hows it all going Gents!?

Just wondered on folks opinion on the mentioned calibre? I feel it could be a nice move up from the 375 H&H.

 

[matt85]

some dont like it, others do.

in my opinion its a very underrated cartridge that gives you modern 416 performance in a double rifle while maintaining relatively low pressure and a rim for reliable extraction.

the real downside is ammunition is impossible to find. so you will need to hand load if you own a rifle chambered in this cartridge. however, brass is available and bullets are very common.

-matt

 

[CAustin]

What you planning on there @norfolk shooter ??? Hippo in your future with Pieter.

 

[norfolk shooter]

What you planning on there @norfolk shooter ??? Hippo in your future with Pieter.

just need to see what type of deal they can do me for my Francotte 375 H&H

 

[spike.t]

what make is it ?

 

[norfolk shooter]

what make is it ?

It would be Krieghoff from Alan Roe. But like I said I would want a deal with my 375 being taken in

 

[IvW]

Great cartridge and was the one Taylor would have used if available. I am seriously contemplating one at this point in time. I hope somebody who actually owns and uses one will chime in...

 

[Witold Krzyżanowski]

some dont like it, others do.

in my opinion its a very underrated cartridge that gives you modern 416 performance in a double rifle while maintaining relatively low pressure and a rim for reliable extraction.

the real downside is ammunition is impossible to find. so you will need to hand load if you own a rifle chambered in this cartridge. however, brass is available and bullets are very common.

-matt

+1

 

[BeeMaa]

some dont like it, others do.

in my opinion its a very underrated cartridge that gives you modern 416 performance in a double rifle while maintaining relatively low pressure and a rim for reliable extraction.

the real downside is ammunition is impossible to find. so you will need to hand load if you own a rifle chambered in this cartridge. however, brass is available and bullets are very common.

-matt

Norma offers two different factory loads with Woodleigh 410 grain bullets, one FMJ and one Soft Nose.
Also offerings from Hornaday, I'm just not a fan of that particular brand.
Not sure where you can find them in the UK, but in the US it's available from a number of on-line sellers.

 

[spike.t]

@norfolk shooter .. Mani just stop screwing around and get a nice Rigby in the .416 no2...sorted simple.....

 

[Hoss Delgado]

I don't know how helpful this will be , but still. In 2016 , when l was in the UK , l visited 3 of the London Gun houses : Westley Richards, Rigby and Holland and Holland.
When l was in Westley Richards , l was talking to a gentleman named , Mr. Trigger about the .577 NE Double rifle which was owned by Stewart Granger ( my favorite actors ) . During our conversation , Mr. Trigger said that the .577 NE was a classic African Caliber in it's hey day , but in reality a .500/416 NE has far better penetration than a .577 NE on Dangerous Game. I asked him a little about this caliber since l never heard anything about it. Westley Richards sold a few doubles in this caliber . One of which is owned by a Professional Hunter named Robin Hurt . Another was used by an unnamed Client to harvest 2 elephant successfully.
I was curious as to why the staff at Westley Richards thought higher of the newfangled .500/416 than a .577 NE classic . They said it has something to do with the .500/416 firing a lighter bullet at higher velocity than the .577 NE which fired a 750 (?) Grain bullet at 2050 feet per second .
As a side note : Westley Richards typically doesn't recommend monolithic solids in a double , preferring the old fashioned FMJ.
I'm sorry . I know NOTHING about Double rifles and even less about the .500/416. The only reason the topic of the .500/416 came up was because , it was being compared with the .577 NE

 

[Red Leg]

I don't know how helpful this will be , but still. In 2016 , when l was in the UK , l visited 3 of the London Gun houses : Westley Richards, Rigby and Holland and Holland.
When l was in Westley Richards , l was talking to a gentleman named , Mr. Trigger about the .577 NE Double rifle which was owned by Stewart Granger ( my favorite actors ) . During our conversation , Mr. Trigger said that the .577 NE was a classic African Caliber in it's hey day , but in reality a .500/416 NE has far better penetration than a .577 NE on Dangerous Game. I asked him a little about this caliber since l never heard anything about it. Westley Richards sold a few doubles in this caliber . One of which is owned by a Professional Hunter named Robin Hurt . Another was used by an unnamed Client to harvest 2 elephant successfully.
I was curious as to why the staff at Westley Richards thought higher of the newfangled .500/416 than a .577 NE classic . They said it has something to do with the .500/416 firing a lighter bullet at higher velocity than the .577 NE which fired a 750 (?) Grain bullet at 2050 feet per second .
As a side note : Westley Richards typically doesn't recommend monolithic solids in a double , preferring the old fashioned FMJ.
I'm sorry . I know NOTHING about Double rifles and even less about the .500/416. The only reason the topic of the .500/416 came up was because , it was being compared with the .577 NE

Sort of difficult to compare a .577 to a 500/416. They make up into totally different rifles with very different ballistics and for frankly somewhat different purposes. The .577 is a truly up close fight stopper (with the heft and dynamics of a crew-served weapon), while the .416 makes into a wonderful, manageable general purpose double rifle that is easy to carry in the field - mile after mile, day after day.

The "newfangled" 500/416 is simply a .416 with a rim designed for double rifles (as @spike.t notes - essentially a .416 no.2 - there is very little new under the sun). Though, considering how few Rigby Rising Bites Marc is likely to actually sell, sourcing 500/416 ammunition should be relatively easy. I have a set of barrels for my Blaser S2, and the rifle is accurate enough that I shoot a scope on it. We initially were going to regulate ammunition for it at 70 yards, but both barrels shoot MOA and a 4-shot LxR/LxR group is three inches at 100 meters. Pretty amazing.

It seems to be fairly popular among the K-Gun fraternity which is logical as it is one of the flagship rounds Krieghoff developed for their modern double rifle. The two make a very capable package as does the S2 dressed up as a .416.

To @norfolk shooter 's original question, I think it is a perfect choice for a client's double rifle. At least the S2 and K-gun versions seem to be inherently accurate, and the rifle makes up into something somewhat more versatile than the standard .470 solution. For instance, my S2 weighs nearly two pounds less than its English .470 stablemate with no recoil issues. Nice.

 

[MMAL]

I have a Kreighoff 500/416 NE double. From my research the cartridge was developed to match the bullet, diameter, weight and ballistics characteristics of .416 Rigby but in a rimmed shell which you need for a double rifle to extract or eject properly and consistently. Thus they took a .500NE case and extended and necked it down to .416 diameter. Matching as closely as they could to the .416 Rigby. It is a great cartridge that sits nicely above the .375H&H, 450/400 NE and below the .470 NE and .500NE. The cartridge is not a classic as it is relatively new, but it allows you to shoot a classic cartridge (.416 Rigby) in a classic style (Double Rifle). As stated above, if you buy one plan on reloading because I agree Hornady for DG is not the way to go and Norma Ammo gets real expensive real quick. PM me any other questions anyone has.

 

[Red Leg]

I have a Kreighoff 500/416 NE double. From my research the cartridge was developed to match the bullet, diameter, weight and ballistics characteristics of .416 Rigby but in a rimmed shell which you need for a double rifle to extract or eject properly and consistently. Thus they took a .500NE case and extended and necked it down to .416 diameter. Matching as closely as they could to the .416 Rigby. It is a great cartridge that sits nicely above the .375H&H, 450/400 NE and below the .470 NE and .500NE. The cartridge is not a classic as it is relatively new, but it allows you to shoot a classic cartridge (.416 Rigby) in a classic style (Double Rifle). As stated above, if you buy one plan on reloading because I agree Hornady for DG is not the way to go and Norma Ammo gets real expensive real quick. PM me any other questions anyone has.

Correct. Did not mean to imply that they rimmed a Rigby case. Rather created a rimmed case with Rigby ballistics and low pressure.

 

[MMAL]

Red Leg, I would never question your knowledge concerning doubles or Blaser rifles and no offense was taken or implied by my post.

 

[Red Leg]

Red Leg, I would never question your knowledge concerning doubles or Blaser rifles and no offense was taken or implied by my post.

It is a great cartridge, and if I didn't already have the S2, I would own a K-Gun in that caliber yesterday. I know you must be happy with yours. And it wouldn't be the first time my sentax wasn't exactly clear.

 

[Hoss Delgado]

Sort of difficult to compare a .577 to a 500/416. They make up into totally different rifles with very different ballistics and for frankly somewhat different purposes. The .577 is a truly up close fight stopper (with the heft and dynamics of a crew-served weapon), while the .416 makes into a wonderful, manageable general purpose double rifle that is easy to carry in the field - mile after mile, day after day.

The "newfangled" 500/416 is simply a .416 with a rim designed for double rifles (as @spike.t notes - essentially a .416 no.2 - there is very little new under the sun). Though, considering how few Rigby Rising Bites Marc is likely to actually sell, sourcing 500/416 ammunition should be relatively easy. I have a set of barrels for my Blaser S2, and the rifle is accurate enough that I shoot a scope on it. We initially were going to regulate ammunition for it at 70 yards, but both barrels shoot MOA and a 4-shot LxR/LxR group is three inches at 100 meters. Pretty amazing.

It seems to be fairly popular among the K-Gun fraternity which is logical as it is one of the flagship rounds Krieghoff developed for their modern double rifle. The two make a very capable package as does the S2 dressed up as a .416.

To @norfolk shooter 's original question, I think it is a perfect choice for a client's double rifle. At least the S2 and K-gun versions seem to be inherently accurate, and the rifle makes up into something somewhat more versatile than the standard .470 solution. For instance, my S2 weighs nearly two pounds less than its English .470 stablemate with no recoil issues. Nice.

Red Leg , since l have only ever fired one double rifle ( a .470 NE ) and read up on only one ( Stewart Granger's .577 Nitro Express Westley Richards which appeared in King Solomon's mines ) , it would be wrong for me to comment on something l don't know. I can only paraphrase what the staff at Westley Richards said . My fascination is with Bolt action rifles , so l was there to see what l can learn about the .425 Westley Richards caliber. I was disappointed that Westley Richards now calibrate their .425 Magnum rifles to fire 2150 fps loads , as opposed to the 2350 fps loads of the past . I spotted some Nice Doubles and asked them if they really built Stewart Granger's gun . We exchanged some nice conversations about Stewart Granger's .577 Nitro Express Westley Richards single trigger Droplock Double rifle. I asked Mr. Trigger if the .577 NE has much demand these days , he replied " It's more of an investment piece than something used by professional hunters these days. Most professional hunters who prefer doubles use the .500 Nitro Express . It has better stopping power than a .470 . Better penetration than a .577" . I asked " How does a .500 beat a .577 ? ". He replied " 570 grain bullet pushed at 2150 fps can outpenetrate a 750 grain bullet at 2050 fps . Serious hunters who hunt with doubles use the .500 for the biggest stuff. The .500/416 is quickly rising in popularity though." I asked a bit about the cartridge . He mentioned how Robin Hurt owns a .500/416 Rifle . He also mentioned that one of their clients has successfully used a .500/416 double to crop two elephant and was impressed with the results
I cannot say anything else about the cartridge .

 

[BeeMaa]

You guys are jerks...the lot of ya.
All I'm doing is watching videos of guys shooting 500/416's.
And trying to figure out how much OT I need to work to pay for the rifle and ammo.

You guys suck...damnit.
I'm going to 7-11 to buy a Lotto ticket.

 

[Hoss Delgado]

You guys are jerks...the lot of ya.
All I'm doing is watching videos of guys shooting 500/416's.
And trying to figure out how much OT I need to work to pay for the rifle and ammo.
.

You guys suck...damnit.
I'm going to 7-11 to buy a Lotto ticket.

Ha Ha. To be honest , some of the British heritage rifle makers are very overrated.
Take Westley Richards for instance. They used to calibrate their .425 Westley Richards Mausers to fire 2350 fps loads. Now they downloaded it to 2150.
Holland and Holland's 12 gauge paradox guns only pattern well with fibre wad 1 ounce shells and WW Greener's Shotguns have " Not for Ball " written on the barrels of their choked guns , effectively preventing you from using slugs in them. A buddy 's Vintage .470 Nitro Express Rigby Double has a nasty tendency of both barrels going off together .
Not bashing the heritage British Brands . It's just that they are not infallible. They are grand and all . Visiting client Hunters can use them well . However , if l were hunting game professionally , I'd take a good old BRNO ZKK-602 in .375 HH Magnum , along with a few boxes of 300 grain Winchester fmj meplat Solids and 300 Grain Swift A frames . Maybe , a box or two of cutting edge monolithic meplat solids as Well . For Wing shooting , l would take a Nice Valmett Combination over under gun with a .22 Savage Hi Power barrel and a 12 gauge 3 inch full choke barrel. With this gun , I'd take a few boxes of No.6 , No.1 and AAA . And 71 grain Norma Soft points for the .22 HP
Good , sturdy Working guns. The British high end pieces can be a little finicky with the loads they use and a little high maintenance.
Among British Brands , l am a big fan of William Evans though. Their Rifles and Shotguns seem real sturdy and practical.
I fired a beautiful side by side for them and really liked it

 

[Red Leg]

Ha Ha. To be honest , some of the British heritage rifle makers are very overrated.
Take Westley Richards for instance. They used to calibrate their .425 Westley Richards Mausers to fire 2350 fps loads. Now they downloaded it to 2150.
Holland and Holland's 12 gauge paradox guns only pattern well with fibre wad 1 ounce shells and WW Greener's Shotguns have " Not for Ball " written on the barrels of their choked guns , effectively preventing you from using slugs in them. A buddy 's Vintage .470 Nitro Express Rigby Double has a nasty tendency of both barrels going off together .
Not bashing the heritage British Brands . It's just that they are not infallible. They are grand and all . Visiting client Hunters can use them well . However , if l were hunting game professionally , I'd take a good old BRNO ZKK-602 in .375 HH Magnum , along with a few boxes of 300 grain Winchester fmj meplat Solids and 300 Grain Swift A frames . Maybe , a box or two of cutting edge monolithic meplat solids as Well . For Wing shooting , l would take a Nice Valmett Combination over under gun with a .22 Savage Hi Power barrel and a 12 gauge 3 inch full choke barrel. With this gun , I'd take a few boxes of No.6 , No.1 and AAA . And 71 grain Norma Soft points for the .22 HP
Good , sturdy Working guns. The British high end pieces can be a little finicky with the loads they use and a little high maintenance.
Among British Brands , l am a big fan of William Evans though. Their Rifles and Shotguns seem real sturdy and practical.
I fired a beautiful side by side for them and really liked it

Jeez Hoss, I hardly know where to begin with this.

"British high end pieces can be a little finicky….." "and are very overrated ....." Really? And upon what specific experience do you base this conclusion? And you have a lot of experience with Holland & Holland Paradox guns? Is it the period or current production guns that seem not up to snuff - based on your observations and experience? Just curious. The new production Holland & Holland paradox that I was recently firing put 740 gr bullets into four inches at sixty meters and shot perfect 1 1/8 ounce IC patterns with number six shot. The gun, regrettably, wasn't mine, but the owner has rolled hogs in North America and an eland across the way with it. We were shooting clays the day we decided to play with it. In what way was your experience different? And what do you mean by high maintenance? That has not been my experience with better English guns at all - or the experience of many colleagues - but perhaps you have a unique perspective?

My Westley Richards, H&H, Cashmore, Evans, MacNaughten, et al are the finest works of the gunmakers' art that I have ever used - and I have used them extensively. They are in some cases a hundred years old and function today, after many thousands of rounds, exactly as they did when they left the bench all those many decades ago. Others are of recent production and demonstrate the same level of perfection. Not something that I have seen in the average Valmet. That perfection is matched by many of the best Continental makers as well. I am a particular fan of the better Francotte and Darne models. All of these guns, which I have used extensively, both in hunting and competition, function flawlessly (rather important in a pigeon shoot where rather meaningful amounts of money are on the line) and are balanced perfectly. They shoot exactly the patterns to whatever degree they are choked.

You are a fan of William Evans guns. So am I. I own a paradox and a SxS. Both are excellent. However, neither is a Holland & Holland Royal, a Purdey, or frankly, a Westley Richards. That said, with my Evans paradox, I have rolled warthog and piled up sand grouse from the same waterhole on the same afternoon. It is a shame that Greener had to mark many of its export guns "not for ball." The typical 12 bore English game gun is proofed for 1 1/8 ounces of shot, weighs about 6 1/2 pounds and was never intended to fire a slug of any type.

My experience with guns, as with most things, is one gets what one pays for. I don't own a Valmet - I prefer a drilling for that sort of work - but I do own Remingtons, a Black Eagle, and other things. They go bang and are appropriate for the right environment (a salt marsh comes to mind). But they are not English game guns.