450/400 3” Velocity…is it enough?

Folks it was brought to my attention by TroubleShooter (Great Catch bye the way) that the Data that I presented on my post #22 was in error ... The Data I copied was for the 450-400 3 1/4" page 159 of Wright's new book the Data that should have been copied was page 157 of his book for the 450-400 3"...
I apologize for my error and thank TroubleShooter for his Eagle Eyes
 
Not to rain on the parade but friends don’t let friends run Hornady bullets on DG. All PH’s I’ve ever asked say “NO” to Hornady bullets… YMMV but I had great luck with Cutting Edge softs and solids in the same caliber - other options like Barnes or Swift AFrames would also be much better bullet choices imho if you can get them to shoot. I’d try for a bit faster as well, in the 2050-2100 fps if you can - possibly can be accomplished by a slightly different powder, again assuming you can get it to shoot. Cartridge is by nature low pressure so you can go up a bit (Starting low of course). Also, the new Garmin device is an amazing tool for measuring velocity. In the end, if 1950 is the final speed that regulates and is accurate then you gotta run what you bring and get closer!
 
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View attachment 713145Hi guys!

Looking for some opinions..

I’m in the process of developing a load to regulate in my new to me double rifle.
After trialing about 5 different gunpowders en 5 different bullets I finally found a combination that regulates well in the rifle.72 gr of IMR 4831. As I increase the velocity the group starts crossing.

The problem is the regulation velocity is only 1950 fps out of 24” barrels.

Is this enough for cape buffalo?

Please share your thoughts

Cheers

F
Plenty! .. have a blast.
 
It will work but I would try IMR 3031, that may get you to 2050fps
 
I am building a 400 Whelen. Same bullet diameter as the 450/400 (.411) and I am looking for a minimum 2150 from a 400gr bullet, but I am not shooting a double and don't have to worry about regulation. The 400 Whelen and the 450/400 seem to be ballistic twins. The late great Alaskan Guide Ed Stevenson used the 400 Whelen as a backup rifle for countless hunts on 10 foot plus grizzlies and his chosen load was 350-360gr Northfork or Barnes bullets at between 2200 to 2350fps. These loads beat the 400gr 2150fps loads for muzzle energy, but I have always liked heavy for caliber loads because of greater momentum. So some professionals have gone the lighter faster route in the caliber, within proper limits.

I make my own bullets, and so I have experience in changing bullet characteristics, materials and construction for achieving desired performance. Of course I can vary bullet weights in .1 grain increments, vary jacket thickness and materials, and vary geometry of the bullet, but that won't be possible for most here. There are a few things you can do to a factory bullet to optimize velocity. Some of these have already been mentioned here by astute responders to this thread. If I had a vintage double that would cost tens of thousands to replace with a bigger gun, or if this round was my upper limit on recoil, the next 4 steps is what I would try to optimize velocity in the gun I already have. YMMV

1, Given this is an older gun and bore size may vary, take 416 bullets and reduce bullets diameters varying between .409, .410, .411 or whatever for final diameters. Don't just go by stated die diameters, always mic finished product to insure what diameter your tools and process has yielded. Dies can wear and bullets can spring back .001 or more after passing through the die. Always reduce loads and work up slowly when testing rounds to maintain safety. Best to slug bore by pushing/pulling a soft lead oval fishing sinker through the barrel and be able to measure bore diameter exactly. Sinker diameter needs to start at a diameter very close to bore diameter, only SLIGHTLY oversized. You can push a lead sinker through a Lee bullet sizing die in a reloading press to get it close. .409, .410 and .411 are standard Lee sizes and dies can be purchased for less than $25. Custom diameter sizing dies can be ordered from Lee in any diameter for $50. When you find the optimal bullet diameter for accuracy and velocity in your gun, go to step 2.

Here is a Lee sixing die for standard reloading press.

lee bullet sizing die.jpg


2. Buy a cannelure tool from Corbins.com and add a series of cannelures down the bearing surface of the bullet (the part of the bullet that touches the barrel). (These tools can sometimes be found on fleabay, that is where I got mine.) This effectively reduces the bearing surface of the bullet significantly, therefore reducing barrel to bullet friction, and therefore possibly increasing maximum velocity with this bullet. You can vary the number and spacing of cannelures until you find what works best to achieve your goals. You basically are creating a "banded" bullet design on a lead core jacketed bullet. Most monometal bullets (TSX, CEB, etc.) must use some version of this "banded" bearing surface on their bullets just to reduce friction between bullet and barrel enough to get monometal bullets of similar weight in the same general velocity range as softer lead core jacketed bullets of same weight. Lead bullets are usually softest, and can be 100 fps or more faster than jacketed bullets of same weight with same load. Jacketed bullets are next softest, and monometals are hardest. Lead bullets often are "banded" to create lube grooves, which also increases their velocity over jacketed bullets of same weight and configuration using same load. When you have created the optimum number and placement of cannelures for you bullet and rifle, then go to step 3.

Here is the Corbins cannelure tool. (These are mostly used for putting cannelures on bullets for crimp grooves, or adding cannelures to factory bullets because you need one above or below where the factory put the groove.)


Standard Hand Cannelure Tool.jpg



I use the Ultimate Cannelure Tool shown below. (The bullet sitting on the tool is just for scale, it is a .510 caliber 750gr A-Max bullet for my 50 bmg.) These A-Max bullets are for extreme long range (up to 2 miles), and have such a long ogive and a boat tail, they have a relatively short bearing surface about 1/3 the OAL of the bullet. Unfortunately, these very excellent custom-made cannelure tools are no longer being made.


UCT 50bmg 001.jpg



3. Buy a set of HARDENED bullet knurling wheels for your Corbins cannelure tool. (THAT IS IMPORTANT. They make a non-hardened set for lead bullets. The HARDENED ones will work for jacketed bullets.) Roll a knurl on all the bearing surfaces of your jacketed bullet after you have added the series of cannelures in step 2.

Here is a set of HARDENED bullet knurling wheels for Corbins Cannelure Tool.

[HCT-2WC] Lead Bullet Knurling Tool Hardened Kit.jpg


Here they are loaded on the tool.

Lead Bullet Knurling Tool.jpg






4. Once the "honeycombed" knurling has been put on the bearing surfaces of the cannelured bullet, you can roll it in some appropriate form of dry bullet lube (like Mica Wad Slick from Ballistic Products Inc.) or moly coat the bullet.


In these 4 steps you have reduced the friction between the bearing surface of the bullet and the bore of the rifle as much as possible without changing bullet materials or construction. Optimizing bullet diameter for bore, adding cannelures to reduce the bearing surface of the bullet, "honeycombing" the bearing surface of the bullet driving bands to reduce friction further, then lubing the "honeycombed" bearing surface with apporpriate lubricant like mica or moly to reduce friction even more; these steps can optimize coefficient of friction between bullet and barrel, therefore optimizing velocity for said bullet in said rifle. This could increase velocity by 100-150fps depending on many variables with bullet, rifle, and variables in the process. It may not increase velocity that much, or it could go a bit more. While there is a lot a trial and error to find what provides optimal performance, once you find what works, it isn't that much extra time or effort to create a few hundred rounds. Always be sure to lock the bullet into the case with a firm crimp in one of the cannelures to insure it doesn't move in the neck of the case once loaded. Making slick bullets means neck friction reduces also. Take all proper precautions in loading procedures to insure safety as always. If you can increase velocity in a prized double rifle into a much more acceptable range (2100fps as opposed to 1950fps) with the same bullet and load and pressure, it might be worth it. Of course that is easy for me to say because I already have most of the tools required. These tools for steps 1-4 could cost up to $750 if you had to buy everything new. Of course said tools could be used in many others ways on many other projects as well. It could cost some money and time to find out if this would be helpful enough to make any real difference, but it could save a lot of money and time when on the ground hunting also if the bullet performs better. Like everything else in life, "You pays your money, and takes your chances."
 
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