I am really into long range targets and shooting at the moment, but am always buying and selling and ended up with a gun that I know little about. It is a Remington 700 (looks like a safari classic IMHO) has the screw on cap and the barrel band for sling. It is in beautiful shape I traded him for a scope I had a lot of money in. He showed me a picture of a gun that looked just like it in cabelas that was listed for $2899. I doubt its worth that much but wanted more info before I started playing with it. Is the value close to that on those or did I get taken??
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416 Remington
- Thread starter dragman
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dragman, I hate be be a buzzkill here. Based on the info you provided (Remington Classic) in 416 remington, with a muzzlebrake/screw on cap (meaning altered), you got took and Cabelas is asking too much for the one just like it. You can get a Classic right now for around $1600 "top's" in 416 Remington and one from Remingtons custom shop for just a bit more +or- $200-$400. Even if it was a tack driver at 300 yards, you would be press to get your money back out of it. There is always someone that might pay that, if they really want it.
sestoppelman
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Its value is relative to what you traded for it. Depends on what the scope was worth.
Scope was worth 1500-1750 depending on market and time. so that is fine with me. I don't need to get rid of the gun I am gonna do some playing lol I have a TON of new brass for this caliber so I can't wait. gun looks exactly like this one
1. www.cabelas.com/product/Remington-Safari-in-Rem/1612865.uts
o Cached
1. www.cabelas.com/product/Remington-Safari-in-Rem/1612865.uts
o Cached
sestoppelman
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You done allright.
Setting aside that there are some things with which I don't feel comfortable about the quoted value of the scope nor of the deal itself, you made an agreement on things you wanted. It's your deal, not ours. Forget about putting any scope on it and fire using iron sights. DG rifles are reknowned for dislodging scope elements.
My opinion is that if the rifle is a good one you have now a far more useful item than a scope...and I hope your 700 has iron sights. Unless a Khales or Nickel and I had very deep pockets I wouldn't shell out $1700US for a scope. How you had a lot invested in the scope eludes me and that may be motivated to say by self protection. You can buy a top quality scope, Czech/Austrian for around $500 US....now that doesn't mean any or every $500 US scope is as good as the type I speak of...but when you pay for a very expensive scope, keep it for life if it is really any good as opposed to being 'expensive'..and I mentioned two good ones...neither of which is my "$500 Austrian scope'..
Rifles when retailed have to cover costs, holding costs and profits..as well as a warranty.Your vendor may have none of those or all of them, but you haven't mentioned warranty. Always ask for Warranty an be cear in writing on what it is an the conditions.
If i have one niggling concern its that such a swap could be for a defective rifle that he couldn't shift, and without any criticism at all, purely geniality, it sounds as though your experience with firearms might not be profound. I would have that rifle checked over by a gunsmith as quickly as possible.
Americans are not noted for selecing European calibres ..for reasons some sensible and some insensible. In thinking that all good starts and finishes at the statue of liberty they miss a great deal
The 8mm and the 9.3 x62 were superb rifles...my 1906 9.3 obenendorf is still in S Africa and it's just beautiful. It's close equivalent to 375. The 190.75 cartridge however doesn't make the grade.
Calibres are largely created by amunition makers competing for proprietary ammo sales ...and like printers the money is in the ink...are the cartridges...
A vast variety of calibres have been churned-out all with dedicated clan followings. There are probably 6 calibres and perhaps even 3 who's cartridge loads as a gropu will serve all purposes and the rest could be scrapped. The 243 for example is across the board an outstanding calibre. The 375 is anothe though I'd choose a 416 Rigby. In fact over 243 and any of the British calibres of 404, 416 and 470 cover everything.
A dangerous game addict and risk-taker might want a 500NE . Of all those I'd choose 416 Rg. 470NE (or a 458Lott) and a 500 NE, unless really strong enough and with need enough for a 600 or 700. One can go around this all day for years...and people have done so.
For various reasons including cartridges and costs .22 0r 222 or similar derivative, a 243 or 270, a 375,would cover most needs up to DG.. Wildcat cartidges limit purchase sites and are invariably expensive. Once you head into 404 416, 458 Lott, (460 WN is in there but there are other cartridges..) 470, 500, 505, 600, you are talking about very expensive ammunition...you don't learn to shoot on those calibres unless you have quite a disposable income. 100 rounds should last years.
So getting back to the 416, Remingtons are ok not my choice I'd go CZ, but a good enough rifle. It's too expensive for cartridges to be learning long range shooting unless you have great ability. It's one of the all time great calibres for DG hunting with seemingly a sort of 'perfect combination' of traits. It will kill anything so long as the shot is well placed..it can drop an elephant in its tracks or a buffalo, but calibre is only one aspect of that. When it comes to dropping a DG to save yourself when you may not have ice in your veins a 470 or 500 double is your gun...or someone else holding one to protect you...but that's up in fairyland for the vast majority of shooters.
Your Remington is one of 3 or 4 cases in that DG calibre. The Brits had these issues sorted out pretty while the Americans were resting on the 45.70. The large case calibres were an easier shoot than say my 458Lott. and 22 inches is about as much as one wants when on the bushveldt...so a double 416 is a handy rifle (when they have rifling grooves insie he barrel, creating a sort of gyro for stalising the elongated bullet...whereas guns uses round ammuniton. .... they are rifles, not guns) If I had one choice on effectiveness, cost of ammo I'd go 416. For plains game 375 is adequate. Retail for ammo for my Lott is $1000/100! you can buy 416 better than that, you can buy 458 Magnum for less...maybe 600/100 retail.
If your 416 turns out to be a good gun and well kept forget prices...you got the better part of the deal....and a fine rifle and calibre. I'd call what most think of as 'distance' shooting ...500-1000yards as absolutely pointless with a 416 Rem. in fact I'd call it just plain stupid...because it isn't that kind of rifle design...or cartridge design
If you use targets from say 50-150metres (or yards) and can shoot it consistently accurately you have the calibre working as intended...it's pretty flat to 150metres (say yards if you wish) and consistently raise the rifle sight and shoot accurately in one motion the you have achieved something useful and skilful. If you want to shoot 'distance' buy a rifle flat for distance..the 416 is a dangerous game at close quarters shooting or at food gathering up to 150 metres for smaller game.
In the future obvous as it is...know the value not of 'brand x' but YOUR particular 'brand x' before doing...and make sure you have a competent check of what you are trading-for so that you are dealing in reality.Voila
My opinion is that if the rifle is a good one you have now a far more useful item than a scope...and I hope your 700 has iron sights. Unless a Khales or Nickel and I had very deep pockets I wouldn't shell out $1700US for a scope. How you had a lot invested in the scope eludes me and that may be motivated to say by self protection. You can buy a top quality scope, Czech/Austrian for around $500 US....now that doesn't mean any or every $500 US scope is as good as the type I speak of...but when you pay for a very expensive scope, keep it for life if it is really any good as opposed to being 'expensive'..and I mentioned two good ones...neither of which is my "$500 Austrian scope'..
Rifles when retailed have to cover costs, holding costs and profits..as well as a warranty.Your vendor may have none of those or all of them, but you haven't mentioned warranty. Always ask for Warranty an be cear in writing on what it is an the conditions.
If i have one niggling concern its that such a swap could be for a defective rifle that he couldn't shift, and without any criticism at all, purely geniality, it sounds as though your experience with firearms might not be profound. I would have that rifle checked over by a gunsmith as quickly as possible.
Americans are not noted for selecing European calibres ..for reasons some sensible and some insensible. In thinking that all good starts and finishes at the statue of liberty they miss a great deal
The 8mm and the 9.3 x62 were superb rifles...my 1906 9.3 obenendorf is still in S Africa and it's just beautiful. It's close equivalent to 375. The 190.75 cartridge however doesn't make the grade.
Calibres are largely created by amunition makers competing for proprietary ammo sales ...and like printers the money is in the ink...are the cartridges...
A vast variety of calibres have been churned-out all with dedicated clan followings. There are probably 6 calibres and perhaps even 3 who's cartridge loads as a gropu will serve all purposes and the rest could be scrapped. The 243 for example is across the board an outstanding calibre. The 375 is anothe though I'd choose a 416 Rigby. In fact over 243 and any of the British calibres of 404, 416 and 470 cover everything.
A dangerous game addict and risk-taker might want a 500NE . Of all those I'd choose 416 Rg. 470NE (or a 458Lott) and a 500 NE, unless really strong enough and with need enough for a 600 or 700. One can go around this all day for years...and people have done so.
For various reasons including cartridges and costs .22 0r 222 or similar derivative, a 243 or 270, a 375,would cover most needs up to DG.. Wildcat cartidges limit purchase sites and are invariably expensive. Once you head into 404 416, 458 Lott, (460 WN is in there but there are other cartridges..) 470, 500, 505, 600, you are talking about very expensive ammunition...you don't learn to shoot on those calibres unless you have quite a disposable income. 100 rounds should last years.
So getting back to the 416, Remingtons are ok not my choice I'd go CZ, but a good enough rifle. It's too expensive for cartridges to be learning long range shooting unless you have great ability. It's one of the all time great calibres for DG hunting with seemingly a sort of 'perfect combination' of traits. It will kill anything so long as the shot is well placed..it can drop an elephant in its tracks or a buffalo, but calibre is only one aspect of that. When it comes to dropping a DG to save yourself when you may not have ice in your veins a 470 or 500 double is your gun...or someone else holding one to protect you...but that's up in fairyland for the vast majority of shooters.
Your Remington is one of 3 or 4 cases in that DG calibre. The Brits had these issues sorted out pretty while the Americans were resting on the 45.70. The large case calibres were an easier shoot than say my 458Lott. and 22 inches is about as much as one wants when on the bushveldt...so a double 416 is a handy rifle (when they have rifling grooves insie he barrel, creating a sort of gyro for stalising the elongated bullet...whereas guns uses round ammuniton. .... they are rifles, not guns) If I had one choice on effectiveness, cost of ammo I'd go 416. For plains game 375 is adequate. Retail for ammo for my Lott is $1000/100! you can buy 416 better than that, you can buy 458 Magnum for less...maybe 600/100 retail.
If your 416 turns out to be a good gun and well kept forget prices...you got the better part of the deal....and a fine rifle and calibre. I'd call what most think of as 'distance' shooting ...500-1000yards as absolutely pointless with a 416 Rem. in fact I'd call it just plain stupid...because it isn't that kind of rifle design...or cartridge design
If you use targets from say 50-150metres (or yards) and can shoot it consistently accurately you have the calibre working as intended...it's pretty flat to 150metres (say yards if you wish) and consistently raise the rifle sight and shoot accurately in one motion the you have achieved something useful and skilful. If you want to shoot 'distance' buy a rifle flat for distance..the 416 is a dangerous game at close quarters shooting or at food gathering up to 150 metres for smaller game.
In the future obvous as it is...know the value not of 'brand x' but YOUR particular 'brand x' before doing...and make sure you have a competent check of what you are trading-for so that you are dealing in reality.Voila
wow, where to begn.
1st - The deal came up I looked the gun up quickly and found prices betwee 1500-2899 which made pretty comfortable in the deal it self (The guy I traded was reputable so I am sure the gun is fine) and yes it has iron sights and I do wish to keep it that way.
2nd - I am by no means a dangerous game hunter and don't claim to be an authority in it or the calibers and guns that go along with it. I am as stated before a long range hunter and competitor. (I will not try this with this rifle I have customs for that)
3rd - You don't have a clue in the scope world I guess. I traded a NXS night force that I had for a backup for a hunting rifle. Just to point out one brand NF's range from 1400-3500 US.
4th - I simply wanted to know aprox what the gun was worth in the real world, and some members answered that (THANKS you guys)
I am only getting into this and playing at the moment If I go to africa soon none of my guns that I use in long range would be truely suitable as most are wildcats making Ammo IMPOSSIBLE to get if something happens.
sestoppelman
AH ambassador
dragman, Pay no attention to the opinionated windbag poster. Perhaps he will go away. None too soon IMO.
Of course where you are reluctant to take advice it isn't my problem. I am quite au fait with the matters I mentioned in my text. Your letter was somewhat misleading, it was a quite reasonable conclusion your long range shooting and your 416 were connected...otherwise why mention the LRShooting? at all ...if it's a non sequiter to the 416 story.
The 700 rifle could be worth much less than $1500US if it has intrinsic damage. It could be worth virtually nothing in some cases, so that gunsmith check could be the single best investment you can make with this rifle.
Here it might bring the equivalent of $800 US in fine order or maybe $900...For that price one can buy a very very good secondhand CZ in Africa calibres.Brno is the rifle of choice for African Guides, Sturm Ruger is a long way behind it and Remington and Winchester somewhere back out of sight except in patriot safaris.
I accept your rebuttals. My advice is probably good advice for someone less knowledgeable than yourself. I can assure you, for a final effort on safety, that highly dangerous faults can exist in a rifle action which seems to be just fine to perhaps the majority of people.
Where you got it from anyone who would trade a scope for a quality rifle puts the rifle under suspicion. You see if the scope was worth that kind of money a buyer might sell it easily and negotiate on cash. Be that as it may, what I know about scopes is about quality scopes used from dawn to dusk , not about American fantasies extended into scopes of their military fixation. What kind of person goes night shooting with a night vision device? and calls it sport.
The kind of people who show advertisements to prospective buyers to justify prices are commonly pawn shops and they usually charge approx 50% of those prices. Why someone sells into a pawn shop or where the shop bought it at auction or wherever is always a big "?". Of course if you bought it from a reputable gunshop why would they need to drag out someone else's price list...they'd have a price based on the market and that rifle and it's desirability and condition and that's it. Some negotiation could take place but to take a scope and no cash is another ? which suggested to me I suggest to you to have the rifle checked by a gunsmith. That still holds.
If they traded a scope said worth $1500 that's $1500 retail second hand especially if also 'platyed-with" ...after deducting their costs and profit they'd have paid no more than $500 for the rifle....416's are very uncommon in comparison with other calibres so they are hard to shift unless something special and are quite noticeably overpriced on my perusing of US rifle shops on internet which carry "Africa Calibres".
The holding costs of such calibres is high...they rarely move fast. I am saying this for others intrinsically as apparently you knew the answers to your questions....why would you be asking its value if you were already convinced it was a good buy? Doing due-diligence after the event doesn't help much if there's sadness rather than joy.
I deal as best I can in facts so I'll pass on your custom rifles and the rest of the long range story....I spent plenty of time offering advice and facts about your 416 and the calibres of that environment, you didn't enjoy it enough to say 'thanks'. The fact is that any ideas you had for the 416 for your current occupation with 'long distance shooting' fall short of reality. Now you know it as one person told you so...the same bloke who's trying to move you up a knowledge-notch in the area you questioned.
It tells its own story that you call rifles 'guns' throughout as opposed to rifles though I advised you as follows " (when they have rifling grooves inside the barrel, creating a sort of gyro for stabilising the elongated bullet...whereas guns uses round ammunition. .... they are rifles, not guns).In the real army, you'd have been peeling potatoes for a week for calling your rifle a gun..or your revolver a pistol or a gun. as well as running a few miles bearing a day pack every day reciting "This is a rifle on my shoulders, not a gun". Unfortunately such silly terms as 'assault rifle' have crept into the language but at least they don't call it an "assault gun"
I'll finish up now as I have spent enough time on doing my bit to be a helper and to put things into perspective. Good luck and Goodbye...Voila
The 700 rifle could be worth much less than $1500US if it has intrinsic damage. It could be worth virtually nothing in some cases, so that gunsmith check could be the single best investment you can make with this rifle.
Here it might bring the equivalent of $800 US in fine order or maybe $900...For that price one can buy a very very good secondhand CZ in Africa calibres.Brno is the rifle of choice for African Guides, Sturm Ruger is a long way behind it and Remington and Winchester somewhere back out of sight except in patriot safaris.
I accept your rebuttals. My advice is probably good advice for someone less knowledgeable than yourself. I can assure you, for a final effort on safety, that highly dangerous faults can exist in a rifle action which seems to be just fine to perhaps the majority of people.
Where you got it from anyone who would trade a scope for a quality rifle puts the rifle under suspicion. You see if the scope was worth that kind of money a buyer might sell it easily and negotiate on cash. Be that as it may, what I know about scopes is about quality scopes used from dawn to dusk , not about American fantasies extended into scopes of their military fixation. What kind of person goes night shooting with a night vision device? and calls it sport.
The kind of people who show advertisements to prospective buyers to justify prices are commonly pawn shops and they usually charge approx 50% of those prices. Why someone sells into a pawn shop or where the shop bought it at auction or wherever is always a big "?". Of course if you bought it from a reputable gunshop why would they need to drag out someone else's price list...they'd have a price based on the market and that rifle and it's desirability and condition and that's it. Some negotiation could take place but to take a scope and no cash is another ? which suggested to me I suggest to you to have the rifle checked by a gunsmith. That still holds.
If they traded a scope said worth $1500 that's $1500 retail second hand especially if also 'platyed-with" ...after deducting their costs and profit they'd have paid no more than $500 for the rifle....416's are very uncommon in comparison with other calibres so they are hard to shift unless something special and are quite noticeably overpriced on my perusing of US rifle shops on internet which carry "Africa Calibres".
The holding costs of such calibres is high...they rarely move fast. I am saying this for others intrinsically as apparently you knew the answers to your questions....why would you be asking its value if you were already convinced it was a good buy? Doing due-diligence after the event doesn't help much if there's sadness rather than joy.
I deal as best I can in facts so I'll pass on your custom rifles and the rest of the long range story....I spent plenty of time offering advice and facts about your 416 and the calibres of that environment, you didn't enjoy it enough to say 'thanks'. The fact is that any ideas you had for the 416 for your current occupation with 'long distance shooting' fall short of reality. Now you know it as one person told you so...the same bloke who's trying to move you up a knowledge-notch in the area you questioned.
It tells its own story that you call rifles 'guns' throughout as opposed to rifles though I advised you as follows " (when they have rifling grooves inside the barrel, creating a sort of gyro for stabilising the elongated bullet...whereas guns uses round ammunition. .... they are rifles, not guns).In the real army, you'd have been peeling potatoes for a week for calling your rifle a gun..or your revolver a pistol or a gun. as well as running a few miles bearing a day pack every day reciting "This is a rifle on my shoulders, not a gun". Unfortunately such silly terms as 'assault rifle' have crept into the language but at least they don't call it an "assault gun"
I'll finish up now as I have spent enough time on doing my bit to be a helper and to put things into perspective. Good luck and Goodbye...Voila
Perhaps you should abbreviate to IMI instead of IMO.."In my ignorance'" rather than "In my opinion' None of you critics seem to have anything to say that indicates substantive knowledge or a willingness to discuss issues in depth and yet you spit the dummy when someone spends the time to create an environent for discussion and assists you, gullibly thinking the phony questions are a genuine search for knowledege.
That aside....It is a pity that someone, in this case you, who knows virtually nothing tries to convince others to ridicule someone who knows a lot more than they do about, in this case, the 416 Remington calibre rifle. It seems that the "Old Man and the Boy" scenario Ruark used to disseminate experience is quite out of fashion for gen X and Y. You might start rectifying that through learning how to be courteous, it's such a pleasing assimilation. Voila
That aside....It is a pity that someone, in this case you, who knows virtually nothing tries to convince others to ridicule someone who knows a lot more than they do about, in this case, the 416 Remington calibre rifle. It seems that the "Old Man and the Boy" scenario Ruark used to disseminate experience is quite out of fashion for gen X and Y. You might start rectifying that through learning how to be courteous, it's such a pleasing assimilation. Voila
enysse
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You have to be careful how you state things. I like CZ and Brno rifles, but the Ruger RSM is damn fine rifle, I would take it over the CZ. And Remington and Winchester have a cult like following. Winchester rifles are some of best ever made, my own two cents. And the .416 is a pretty popular big bore rifle, maybe not as popular as the .375's but it's pretty popular.
By and large most people don't hunt Africa, so the need for large calibers is never great by any means.
Just me careful how you state things.
By and large most people don't hunt Africa, so the need for large calibers is never great by any means.
Just me careful how you state things.
PHOENIX PHIL
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If this was advice to the Greek/British philospher, it would be appear to have come a bit late.
Wheels
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"I know that I know nothing" famous quote by the Greek Socrates.
It looks like Jerome slipped this Socrates some hemlock! Will he come back as Plato next week?
It looks like Jerome slipped this Socrates some hemlock! Will he come back as Plato next week?
sestoppelman
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Let us hope not! This clowns first post was insulting and outrageous and frankly really ticked me off. I for one wont miss him, even for a second.
Heym 88
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Your right...the Ruger RSM safari rifle is a damn fine one. I have two as mentioned before. A 416 Rigby and 375H&H. I have a winchester 70 in 375H&H as well, another damn fine rifle. This guy ( socrates) thinks he's a genious. Probably thinks off shore drilling is something the Marines do.
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sestoppelman
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OK my day didnt go all that well, but your last comment is the funniest thing I have heard in a month!! Thanks Heym, I needed that!:clap:
RickB
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I agree, Thats funny no matter who you are!!
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:hail::hail:
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