318 NE bolt very tight on kynoch ammo

[fiocchi]

Hi all,
Picked up 250g kynoch soft point ammo for my 1920 318 WR/NE, and found the bolt is very, very hard to close on most rounds, some are easier than others, but none are ‘smooth’.
Chamber is clean
Here are pictures of the shoulders that seem to get a ‘scratch’ most of they way around

any thoughts?

please don’t suggest going to see a smith with go-no go gauges etc. As that doesn’t exist apart from 1 manufacturer here in the UK.

 

[John Wasmuth]

Has this occurred with any other manufacturers ammunition or just kynoch? If you have a caliper can you measure a fired casing from your rifle and compare it to the loaded cartridge?

 

[Hunter-Habib]

Has this occurred with any other manufacturers ammunition or just kynoch? If you have a caliper can you measure a fired casing from your rifle and compare it to the loaded cartridge?

Part of the problem here, is that Kynoch is ( or rather WAS, now that Woodleigh bullets are gone and Kynoch used to exclusively employ Woodleigh bullets in their ammunition) the only company who has ever manufactured .318 Westley Richards ammunition. Unless (maybe) if you count custom loaders such as Hendershots. But I am uncertain if Hendershots ever offered loaded ammunition for the .318 Westley Richards.

 

[Shootist43]

Were these new / factory loads? Have you measured the brass to see how it compares to specifications?

 

[Hunter-Habib]

Hi all,
Picked up 250g kynoch soft point ammo for my 1920 318 WR/NE, and found the bolt is very, very hard to close on most rounds, some are easier than others, but none are ‘smooth’.
Chamber is clean
Here are pictures of the shoulders that seem to get a ‘scratch’ most of they way around

any thoughts?

please don’t suggest going to see a smith with go-no go gauges etc. As that doesn’t exist apart from 1 manufacturer here in the UK.

Your vintage Westley Richards rifle was made for the original ICI (Imperial Chemical Industries) Kynoch ammunition and was built to extremely tight tolerances. Obviously, the new Kynamco ammunition is of varying tolerances and differs from the specs of the original ICI Kynoch factory loads.

 

[fiocchi]

have not fired any cases yet in this, and only have the Eley/Kynoch ammo, some of it is 'Westley Richards' Kynoch, but is all the same of course. that's about the only ammo I'll be able to get hold of, reloading dies, forget it!

one update though, I found tiny shavings of brass in the mag box, so one of the scratches is due to cartridges catching on the feedramp where it mates with the mag box; HOWEVER, it's still tight to close, some rounds more than others, and STILL leaves that slight 'rub' mark on the shoulder all the way round

 

[fiocchi]

Your vintage Westley Richards rifle was made for the original ICI (Imperial Chemical Industries) Kynoch ammunition and was built to extremely tight tolerances. Obviously, the new Kynamco ammunition is of varying tolerances and differs from the specs of the original ICI Kynoch factory loads.

True, however, the Kynoch ammo I'm using is very old and states on the box it was from ICI

 

[fiocchi]

I've scrubbed the chamber to remove any potential for crud build up in the shoulder to neck area, but what's odd is how tight some rounds are, and others are 'better', but none smooth closing whatsoever.

rifle would have been made for 250g'ers, and specifically with Kynoch in mind as ammo supplier, so cannot be it was cut for the 186g'ers, plus, the 186g metal capped offerings are too long to fit in the mag box.

 

[Wyatt Smith]

If possible, I would see if it is the bullet or the case making it tight. If it’s the case I would shoot them.

 

[Hunter-Habib]

True, however, the Kynoch ammo I'm using is very old and states on the box it was from ICI

The problem can still exist. Here’s why:

Your Westley Richards rifle was built in either the 1920s or the 1930s. ICI Kynoch was still using cupronickel jacketed bullets at that time. In 1958, ICI Kynoch switched to thicker steel jacketed bullets and also altered the specs of some of their cases (on a microscopic level). This might explain why your rifle doesn’t close it’s bolt on several of the rounds. Elmer Keith documents this phenomenon in an article on Guns Magazine.

 

[fiocchi]

Were these new / factory loads? Have you measured the brass to see how it compares to specifications?

just measured the unfired cases, and they are as close to specs as my calipers could ever wish for.

 

[fiocchi]

If possible, I would see if it is the bullet or the case making it tight. If it’s the case I would shoot them.

definitely the case, no land markings on the bullets

 

[fiocchi]

The problem can still exist. Here’s why:

Your Westley Richards rifle was built in either the 1920s or the 1930s. ICI Kynoch was still using cupronickel jacketed bullets at that time. In 1958, ICI Kynoch switched to thicker steel jacketed bullets and also altered the specs of some of their cases (on a microscopic level). This might explain why your rifle doesn’t close it’s bolt on several of the rounds. Elmer Keith documents this phenomenon in an article on Guns Magazine.

you know your stuff Sir, thank you!

what's also interesting is there is variation 'within' one box of ammo. bullet wise, how would that affect bolt closing unless there were marks on the bullets...or are you saying that the thicker jacket has made the neck slightly larger/other?

 

[Hunter-Habib]

you know your stuff Sir, thank you!

what's also interesting is there is variation 'within' one box of ammo. bullet wise, how would that affect bolt closing unless there were marks on the bullets...or are you saying that the thicker jacket has made the neck slightly larger/other?

You’re welcome. Thicker steel jackets require the case necks to be larger (almost imperceptible to the human eye, but something which a tight tolerance rifle bolt would be able to “sense”).

 

[fiocchi]

You’re welcome. Thicker steel jackets require the case necks to be larger (almost imperceptible to the human eye, but something which a tight tolerance rifle bolt would be able to “sense”).

would this explain why the base of the rim has circular scratches around the primer pocket, ie. the case is held in the chamber, but the boltface turns and grinds it on closing?

 

[fiocchi]

i'm guessing all the cases will be marred and a bitch to deal with until I find reloading dies and bullets..susss...and here's me thinking the .318 was such a great idea! LOL

 

[fiocchi]

...would it be bad giving the case necks/shoulders a little 'polish' to smooth them up and maybe make them 'fit' just a twitch better?

 

[Red Leg]

You are in the UK so take it to Westley Richards. They would be delighted to sort that rifle out for you. It won't be cheap, or particularly quick, but it would be done correctly. If it is a head space issue, which is what it looks like it might be to me, this is not work for an amateur. And I would think long and hard about using any tool or abrasive on that action if this is new to you.

Yes. ammunition is the critical path with a .318 NE. Fortunately, there are a couple of custom loading companies in the States, and I stocked a lifetime supply (at great expense). If you can get it running they are wonderful things.

 

[fiocchi]

You are in the UK so take it to Westley Richards. They would be delighted to sort that rifle out for you. It won't be cheap, or particularly quick, but it would be done correctly. If it is a head space issue, which is what it looks like it might be to me, this is not work for an amateur. And I would think long and hard about using any tool or abrasive on that action if this is new to you.

Yes. ammunition is the critical path with a .318 NE. Fortunately, there are a couple of custom loading companies in the States, and I stocked a lifetime supply (at great expense). If you can get it running they are wonderful things.

thanks. it was actually built by William Evans in 1920 as a .318 WR/Nitro Express. But WR could probably be paid to re-cut/polish the chamber to seat factory ammo, esp. 'new' kynoch ammo..although we don't know what that will look like due to woodleigh being gone, and them apparently looking at peregrine monolithic bullets for their .318WR offering (in that 'lead' is likely to be banned shortly in UK cartridges).

it was a helluva find at just a few hundred bucks; can I spend a few thousand at WR for a lengthy 'fix', nope.

I had hoped it would be my beloved classic 'open sight rifle', but I'm now less infatuated sadly...I have access to around 300 rounds of this ammo (old ICI), but 'new' here I'm told could be 6-12 months away..so if this don't work, the old girl may have to go sadly.

 

[fiocchi]

Ok, kept my cool,,,not ready to sell the old girl yet...

spoke to a good friend, who suggested:
a. lap the lugs to 'set bolt back just a touch'
b. polish chamber shoulder with a fired case and some lapping compound
c. something else..can't recall.

either way, before taking tools to the gun, which I'm hesitant to do,,,I thought, 'f*ck it', let's just try and do a quick polish of the cases with 2000 grit wet/dry...essentially it's not really removing brass, just polishing it up..so I did, and focused on the shoulder and neck particularly, just 'buffing really.

..and hey ho! after 10-20 secs per cartridge, they slide in a 'tiny' bit tight, but bolt closing much much more elegantly.

I guess I will have some long nights at the office desk, with a stack of 2000 grit wet/dry and getting them all to feed properly.

is it the 'best' fix?..probably not, but failing to have access to dies, nor the money to consult the Birmingham gods, it's probably the only way, so..will have to do