1st rifle for grandson

[Kevin Peacocke]

We started on pellet guns and I am starting little Charles on one too, in fact the very same one I had 60 years ago. This Diana15 is still too big for him, he is just three, but he likes to handle it and we can already instill in him that he mustn't point it at anyone.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

@Bob Nelson 35Whelen ,
Good Townsend "Bundy" Nelson,
I'm not sure either one will meet the recoil requirements for a young hunter, but beyond that I don't follow you. The 318 WR was slated to throw a 250gr bullet at 2400 fps. That's above the 1500 ft-lbs mark over 800 yards. The modern .45-70 throws a 500 grain bullet at 1600+ fps which makes 1500 ft-lbs at over 400 yards. Your examples are pretty good representations of good power levels as discussed in this thread. I get the real world factors that kill an animal. What I don't understand is why you think they won't meet the standard. Is this a Bundy induced conversion error between the metric system and standard?

@Forrest Halley
I know the old 318 was a potent cartridge but it didn't meet the energy requirements for large DG but it worked well on them. The same applies to the old 45-70 at its original 1,300 fps it doesn't meet the energy requirements for game like bison yet it worked and killed thousands of them.
Bullet construction and momentum kills not fpe.
Bob

 

[hawkeyesatx]

@Forrest Halley
I know the old 318 was a potent cartridge but it didn't meet the energy requirements for large DG but it worked well on them. The same applies to the old 45-70 at its original 1,300 fps it doesn't meet the energy requirements for game like bison yet it worked and killed thousands of them.
Bullet construction and momentum kills not fpe.
Bob

Plus, the size of the hole made going in and coming out helps with tissue destruction.
The bigger the hole, the more blood loss, the faster the animal expires.
Same concept with handgun bullets. Except for the .357 Mag, where it has the speed to transfer energy.
Handgun bullet the size of .45 or bigger makes big holes going in and coming out. Loss of blood from the tissue damage is severe.


Hawk

 

[Forrest Halley]

@Forrest Halley
I know the old 318 was a potent cartridge but it didn't meet the energy requirements for large DG but it worked well on them. The same applies to the old 45-70 at its original 1,300 fps it doesn't meet the energy requirements for game like bison yet it worked and killed thousands of them.
Bullet construction and momentum kills not fpe.
Bob

We're talking about 1500 ft-lbs for an Elk. Not PG or DG. It's a convoluted circle we've run in here.

I'm sticking with 7-08 or .30-06. Based on the data gathered previously on recoil energy and unless the OP already has any of those other calibers it makes the most sense.

We keep circling like this and we'll somehow get to the .404.

 

[JimP]

I have seen over the years that for elk hunting to get kids a 7mm-08 and be done.

I have always had problems with trying to figure out just how young a kid can go hunting at with their own firearm. But when it comes to elk you need a firearm that will do the job on them and allow for a certain amount of err. Some states like Colorado have a minimum caliber of .24 for any big game but in my eyes it should be a minimum of .25. It's just a silly 0.01 of a inch bigger but most of the rounds for those .25 calibers pack quite a bit more punch than those .24 calibers.

Kids need to learn that they need to wait until they can handle a firearm that can dispatch the animal that they are hunting. It doesn't matter if they are hunting rabbits or elephants they have to be able to shoot the firearm that is going to do the job. And pushing a smaller caliber onto them isn't the proper way to do it.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

We're talking about 1500 ft-lbs for an Elk. Not PG or DG. It's a convoluted circle we've run in here.

I'm sticking with 7-08 or .30-06. Based on the data gathered previously on recoil energy and unless the OP already has any of those other calibers it makes the most sense.

We keep circling like this and we'll somehow get to the .404.

@Forrest Halley
Come in spinner. Got you playing silly games hook, line and sinker but bullet construction and mass play a role as well.
Bob

 

[CBH Australia]

We started on pellet guns and I am starting little Charles on one too, in fact the very same one I had 60 years ago. This Diana15 is still too big for him, he is just three, but he likes to handle it and we can already instill in him that he mustn't point it at anyone.

View attachment 423228View attachment 423229

He has the Pithy, he will become a real hunter. Like a traditional African hunter.

 

[Dr Ray]

I was going to say the same exact thing, you just beat me to it.

What if you do a neck shot that knocks them out like a heavyweight boxer hitting his opponent, knocks them down, but not out, and you walk up to an injured elk, dazed, and confused, and then suddenly comes to, and you are 3 to 6 feet away? What do you think that elk will do? If it’s a big bull, you’ve got 600 - 700 lbs of pissed off animal, and probably won’t hesitate to gore you with it’s antlers, and then trample you. Maybe, if you’re lucky, it just tramples you. But remember, you have your grandson there with you. He’ll more than likely get trampled too.
Don’t think it can’t happen.
A big mule deer did exactly that same thing to a hunter, and killed him last year. And that was just a mule deer!
Always best to take a heart/shoulder shot! And USE ENOUGH GUN!
I wouldn’t go having a new hunter hunting elk, using a .243, or even a .25-06, I think you’re asking for trouble if you do.
7mm-08 the minimum, but I would prefer they use a .270 Win, because it has more oomph than the 7mm-08, and 7x57mm.
But hey! What do I know?!?


Hawk

Agreed
270 has more energy than those and the 308 and the 30/06

 

[Dr Ray]

Ray i would challenge you to shoot a 6.5x55 or 6.5 Creedmoor beside a 243 and compare shootability and recoil. Then compare ballistics.

I’m thinking of a 12 year - recoil mainly

 

[Dr Ray]

Oh, I hope the good Dr does not prescribe a 6.5 Man Bun as the remedy to cure this .

I think his next choice would be the venerable .270 and I hope that they were not chambering either Sako or Winchester model 70s in thean bun round in hunting rifle configurations.

And

I like my Sakos especially like using my 270 /a non-wimps rifle

 

[TMac]

The reason I picked the 243 - low recoil but reasonably powerful
I’m not suggesting the 243 for elk
I would suggest that the young person graduate to hunting elk when he can handle a more powerful cartridge
Steady as he goes

Sage advice Dr. Ray.

I know a very successful Elk Outfitter that would rather have a hunter bring a .243 they shoot well, than an Uber boomer they are afraid of. A good 100gr. bullet out of a .243 will kill any elk that has ever walked this earth with proper placement at reasonable ranges. Does that make it a recommended elk cartridge, nope.

The .243 is a near perfect cartridge for a new hunter on game to 300lbs or so, same caveats as above. One of my best Mule Deer went down to a .243 shooting 100 gr. Corelokts, 275 ish yards, was more than adequate.

It’s a poor workman that blames their tools. The three most important things for a clean kill are placement, placement, placement, in that exact order. Again, predicated on a good bullet at reasonable ranges.

 

[TMac]

@Forrest Halley
Foot pounds of energy doesn't kill an animal.
A properly constructed bullet with enough momentum to reach the vitals and expand correctly is what does the job. The result is then catastrophic damage to the vital organs resulting in death.
The old 318 WR and the likes of the 45-70 may not meet the standards of foot pounds of energy required but because of the projectile construction and their momentum they will do the job of killing game well .
Bob

Yeppers. As I often say, if it took foot pounds of energy to kill game, arrows wouldn’t…

 

[Saul]

I am late to the discussion, but I am of the opinion that a pellet gun followed by a .22 is always the best place to start. For hunting, a 6mm Rem would be a good choice. Another option could be finding the heaviest rifle possible. Something like a M40A1 should weigh 12-15 lbs which would make the .308 recoil negligible.

 

[Cam Moon]

I love my 6mm Rem! I've taken a few Elk, several Moose, and countless deer with it, but it does fall in with the .243 as far as a beginner hunter with Elk as his quarry.
I agree with the heavy rifle mitigating recoil, but the poor burger has to pack it around too!

 

[Alaska Luke]

Couple other ideas to consider.

First if you can legally do it a suppressor is awesome. I've had recoil shy kids plinking away happily with heavy 308 loads. No need to worry about ear plugs while you set up to shoot.

Second I really like to give new hunters a solid rest. I always carry a Primos Trigger Stick tripod if kids are along. Last fall a 13 year old nailed a caribou at 160 yards with it. The year before that another kid got one at 120 yards. Worth the weight in my opinion. I'd rather the kid take a careful shot at 100 yards with a rest then a rushed offhand shot (I saw a new hunter miss a caribou that popped out at 40 yards).

Finally if a kid is carrying the rifle light is nice. If the adult carries the rifle extra weight won't hurt. Something to consider. I often take the kids rifle to help them hike a bit farther. Some kids don't mind others want to be independent. Do what works for your kid.

I have not personally used a 7mm-08 much but a teenager girl I know shot a 7 foot grizzly with one. A boy I know has killed a bunch of caribou with his. Seems as good if not better then my 308. Either will work but with lighter loads the 7mm-08 is going to be a bit more efficient as you stretch the range out. I like my 308 but if you are always going to run lighter bullets I don't see the point.

 

[Saul]

I love my 6mm Rem! I've taken a few Elk, several Moose, and countless deer with it, but it does fall in with the .243 as far as a beginner hunter with Elk as his quarry.
I agree with the heavy rifle mitigating recoil, but the poor burger has to pack it around too!

I also love my 6mm AI. Let the kid carry the heavy rifle, he is young and can manage it, plus it will be good exercise and keep him from becoming adverse to heavier guns.

 

[Forrest Halley]

Sage advice Dr. Ray.

I know a very successful Elk Outfitter that would rather have a hunter bring a .243 they shoot well, than an Uber boomer they are afraid of. A good 100gr. bullet out of a .243 will kill any elk that has ever walked this earth with proper placement at reasonable ranges. Does that make it a recommended elk cartridge, nope.

The .243 is a near perfect cartridge for a new hunter on game to 300lbs or so, same caveats as above. One of my best Mule Deer went down to a .243 shooting 100 gr. Corelokts, 275 ish yards, was more than adequate.

It’s a poor workman that blames their tools. The three most important things for a clean kill are placement, placement, placement, in that exact order. Again, predicated on a good bullet at reasonable ranges.

You lost me at .243 loaded with Core un-Lokt on anything above a white tail at short range. I'm going to need a premium bullet. You have to have some minimum level of energy to effect penetration. It can't all be about placement, which seems to be the sunny day song of the undergunned when they optimistically take on larger game. About 1200 ft-lbs at 275 yards is what that bullet had on it. Was it DRT or did it run a ways?
I used to hunt deer with a .30-06 loaded with 125 gr Core Lokt. Worked really well until I exceeded 150 yards. Then it didn't work as well anymore. Despite having 1700 ft-lbs at 200 yards it was a poor design that didn't hold together.

Yeppers. As I often say, if it took foot pounds of energy to kill game, arrows wouldn’t…

Arrows kill by hemorrhaging. Bullets kill by penetration destroying vital organs, interrupting the CNS and energy imparted creating expansive temporary and permanent wound cavities interrupting the circulatory system.

I am late to the discussion, but I am of the opinion that a pellet gun followed by a .22 is always the best place to start. For hunting, a 6mm Rem would be a good choice. Another option could be finding the heaviest rifle possible. Something like a M40A1 should weigh 12-15 lbs which would make the .308 recoil negligible.

No. Not for a beginner marksman and an elk. A 12-15 pound rifle for a child? Haha I'm sure the person who ends up carrying it will love that suggestion. Not a problem for the short walk stand hunter, but less than useful for a spot and stalk.

I love my 6mm Rem! I've taken a few Elk, several Moose, and countless deer with it, but it does fall in with the .243 as far as a beginner hunter with Elk as his quarry.
I agree with the heavy rifle mitigating recoil, but the poor burger has to pack it around too!

I love my 2-4-3. It's light and does quite a bit for me, but I'm not giving it to a young hunter to go and wound something on the absolute upper end of it's capability. Unless I'm standing by with a magnum rifle to follow up the shot immediately if it doesn't go as planned, but even that is optimistic.

 

[Wyatt Smith]

For those saying get a heavy rifle for a kid, don’t forget it will need to shot in field positions where they might big be able to handle it well.
IMO if the kid has to wait till he’s old enough to handle an elk rifle (270 and up) then he can wait to go elk hunting.

 

[CBH Australia]

With all this talk of 7mm-08 I think about my Tikka CTR, slightly heavier than a sporter but a good size youth rifle.

Apart from that we don't know the whole circumstances so it's still horse for courses.

 

[Forrest Halley]

Or he could go wild and buy the kid a .257 Wby R8 and then he'd have the proper bolt head for the .375 H&H we he got bigger. Only rifle he'd literally ever need for hunting. Now I've really lost it. The recoil is about 15 ft-lbs so it's pretty close to a 7-08 and less than a .30-06...I might be on to something...Bob seems to think the world suddenly changes at .25 caliber...