Politics

Tubby’s Canteen said:

Such a business genius that he would have been money ahead to invest in the s&p 500 and do absolutely nothing in business? He’s bankrupted casinos, hotels, airlines , a football league, a university and a whole host of other ventures. If not for an inheritance he’d be a realtor at best and Likely a braggart no one could stand at the local golf course.

As for trying to understand trump who stands a chance of that he never says the same thing twice.

Trump Engaged in Suspect Tax Schemes as He Reaped Riches From His Father (Published 2018)

The president has long sold himself as a self-made billionaire, but a Times investigation found that he received at least $413 million in today’s dollars from his father’s real estate empire, much of it through tax dodges in the 1990s.

www.nytimes.com

The biggest single thing he’s successful at is image manipulation

Click to expand...

The bankruptcy argument is typically fielded by the left, and particularly by those that don't understand the differences in personal bankruptcy laws in the US vs corporate bankruptcy laws..

The truth is he quite literally made piles and piles and piles of cash on the overwhelming majority of his businesses.. and when it was advantageous to bankrupt them, he did.. (like I said in a previous post.. a truly ruthless businessman)..

he certainly had an advantage in life by being his fathers son... but for every son that builds his fathers business into an empire, there are dozens that completely collapse their families assets and businesses (there's a reason generational wealth in the US rarely lasts past 3 generations)..

Trump bankrupted a business is tantamount to the argument that Musk made a strategic mistake buying twitter because Twitters market cap is now significantly lower than it was before Musk bought it.. Its an easy story to tell.. but it conveniently ignores numerous facts that change the outcome of the story..

The banks have lost a small fortune on the financing of X... no doubt about it...

Musk however has made a few billion off of the deal.. the business was optimized, its shrunk in size which substantially reduced its operating costs.. while at the same time its profit margins have improved, and Musk made a ton of money in the deal.. he then does an all stock (no cash) deal, transferring ownership of X to his AI company.. and increases XAi's market value from $50B to $80B with the transfer.. increasing the value of his shares in XAi by a huge amount (thereby making even more money)..

Similarly its very easy to say "Trump bankrupted a $1.1B casino!!!!! he's a business idiot!!!!"

Well.. lets see... who took that $1.1B loss? and who made money in the process?

Trump paid himself in excess of $1M a year the first few years he owned his casinos.. he also paid himself a $5M bonus a couple of times... after the bankruptcy he increased his salary to over $2M a year.. and from 2001-2005 he paid himself over $3M a year as the casinos CEO.. He filed a Chapter 11 bankruptcy which is a "restructuring" bankruptcy where they essentially laid off a substantial amount of the staff rather than Trump and the shareholders having to take a significant loss (again, ruthless).. Then sold the casino to 2 NJ investors (lining his pockets along the way)... At no point did he or his primary investors lose a dime...

Those NJ investors however took a beating... The Trump Taj Mahal was shuttered not too long after it was purchased (the new owners couldn't turn it around).. and while the sale price that they sold it for isn't publicly disclosed, the consensus is it was a blood bath..

So... Trump ruthless? absolutely.. Trump an asshole? no doubt...

Trump an idiot for the way he managed his casino deals.. I suppose if someone thinks making a couple of hundred million dollars over a 13 year period of time, and the selling off the asset for further profit makes you an idiot, you could call him that...

Trumps personal net worth has certainly risen and fallen at different times in his life.. but that is far more a result of markets rising and falling and investment values rising and falling than it is major business mistakes... do as many deals has he has and sure, some are going to fail.. but when the overwhelming majority are incredibly successful and have allowed you to turn your fathers tens of millions into an empire currently worth $5.1B and that at times has been worth as much as $7.8B... I'd say you've likely done something right along the way...

And again, Trump has never filed a personal bankruptcy.. no Chapter 7.. no Chapter 13..

What he has filed several times are Chapter 11 bankruptcies.. which is unfortunately a fairly common business practice and a well used tool among versed CEO's that rarely involves ownership to lose a penny.. instead it puts the burden on the banks and the common investors (again, ruthless)..

Tubby’s Canteen said:

The biggest single thing he’s successful at is image manipulation

Click to expand...

Completely concur..

Hell.. he tells you that himself.. read The Art of the Deal..

He (his ghost writer) explains in a very detailed way that image manipulation and invoking improper emotional responses out of adversaries is a core component of his negotiation strategy...

Youd think 35+ years later at least a couple of the world leaders that have had to engage with him would have read the book and considered that maybe he was telling the truth (there's plenty of evidence to validate that this is exactly what he does)

mdwest said:

The bankruptcy argument is typically fielded by the left, and particularly by those that don't understand the differences in personal bankruptcy laws in the US vs corporate bankruptcy laws..

The truth is he quite literally made piles and piles and piles of cash on the overwhelming majority of his businesses.. and when it was advantageous to bankrupt them, he did.. (like I said in a previous post.. a truly ruthless businessman)..

he certainly had an advantage in life by being his fathers son... but for every son that builds his fathers business into an empire, there are dozens that completely collapse their families assets and businesses (there's a reason generational wealth in the US rarely lasts past 3 generations)..

Trump bankrupted a business is tantamount to the argument that Musk made a strategic mistake buying twitter because Twitters market cap is now significantly lower than it was before Musk bought it.. Its an easy story to tell.. but it conveniently ignores numerous facts that change the outcome of the story..

The banks have lost a small fortune on the financing of X... no doubt about it...

Musk however has made a few billion off of the deal.. the business was optimized, its shrunk in size which substantially reduced its operating costs.. while at the same time its profit margins have improved, and Musk made a ton of money in the deal.. he then does an all stock (no cash) deal, transferring ownership of X to his AI company.. and increases XAi's market value from $50B to $80B with the transfer.. increasing the value of his shares in XAi by a huge amount (thereby making even more money)..

Similarly its very easy to say "Trump bankrupted a $1.1B casino!!!!! he's a business idiot!!!!"

Well.. lets see... who took that $1.1B loss? and who made money in the process?

Trump paid himself in excess of $1M a year the first few years he owned his casinos.. he also paid himself a $5M bonus a couple of times... after the bankruptcy he increased his salary to over $2M a year.. and from 2001-2005 he paid himself over $3M a year as the casinos CEO.. He filed a Chapter 11 bankruptcy which is a "restructuring" bankruptcy where they essentially laid off a substantial amount of the staff rather than Trump and the shareholders having to take a significant loss (again, ruthless).. Then sold the casino to 2 NJ investors (lining his pockets along the way)... At no point did he or his primary investors lose a dime...

Those NJ investors however took a beating... The Trump Taj Mahal was shuttered not too long after it was purchased (the new owners couldn't turn it around).. and while the sale price that they sold it for isn't publicly disclosed, the consensus is it was a blood bath..

So... Trump ruthless? absolutely.. Trump an asshole? no doubt...

Trump an idiot for the way he managed his casino deals.. I suppose if someone thinks making a couple of hundred million dollars over a 13 year period of time, and the selling off the asset for further profit makes you an idiot, you could call him that...

Trumps personal net worth has certainly risen and fallen at different times in his life.. but that is far more a result of markets rising and falling and investment values rising and falling than it is major business mistakes... do as many deals has he has and sure, some are going to fail.. but when the overwhelming majority are incredibly successful and have allowed you to turn your fathers tens of millions into an empire currently worth $5.1B and that at times has been worth as much as $7.8B... I'd say you've likely done something right along the way...

And again, Trump has never filed a personal bankruptcy.. no Chapter 7.. no Chapter 13..

What he has filed several times are Chapter 11 bankruptcies.. which is unfortunately a fairly common business practice and a well used tool among versed CEO's that rarely involves ownership to lose a penny.. instead it puts the burden on the banks and the common investors (again, ruthless)..

Click to expand...

There you go, being the voice of logic & reason.

Tubby’s Canteen said:

@mdwest take away his money and his leverage for a minute and answer me a simple question. On an equal playing field would you enter into business with anyone who exhibits the traits Donald trump does? Proven lier, bombastic statements, long history of failures in business, you’ve said yourself you think he’s an asshole if not for the advantages he got in life from his inheritance do you believe anyone would of done business with him?

Click to expand...

Absolutely not.

Remember, I am a CEO. I run a fairly decent sized business myself and have for several years at this point. Prior to becoming a CEO, I was a COO for 3+ years.. Ive been working at the C-Suite level for more than a decade, and at the senior management/junior executive level for close to 2 decades..

My business purposely avoids partnering with businesses and business leaders like Trump... we very intentionally seek out partners that are looking for very long term relationships and that are willing to capitalize on symbiotic facets of our two businesses..

The majority of businesses we work with we have had close relationships with for 10+ years..

If/when we find a business that we are working with that doesn't share our values, we sever those relationships..

We very firmly believe that our focus should be on taking care of our people.. if our people are well taken care of, our people will in turn take very good care of our customers.. and if our customers are well taken care of, the bottom line largely takes care of itself.... we also very purposely make decisions based on right and wrong vs impact on the bottom line.. we will intentionally walk away from profit if we think the path to getting there is morally or ethically (or legally) wrong..

But.. admittedly we are unlike many (most?) of our competitors.. we are very much in it for the long haul, and very much consider our workforce like family.. we want to be the business that everyone else wants to work for and be a part of... and if that means I don't get to make an extra $100K this year, so be it...

My industry (defense) however is rife with truly ruthless leaders that don't see things the same way I do.. its all about shareholder value being realized TODAY and leaders making as much money as possible TODAY.. so, I am very much in tune with leaders like Trump.. I see it on a regular basis.. its in fact not at all uncommon in my particular industry.. Im just blessed to have a board of directors that share my (and the companys) values.. that don't try to fire me every time I pass on a deal that makes money in the short term but makes us less of a desireable employer in the long term..

mdwest said:

Not to side bar this conversation any worse than I already have... but...

If you (or anyone else here) has occasion to visit Togo again.. Ive had a team on the ground there in Lome for much of the last 7 years.. they do intermittent work.. so they'll be in country for 3 or 4 months, then home for a few months, then back in country for a few months, etc.. but they are there much more often than they are not..

One of the guys is an exceptional former special forces medic that maintains an aid bag that should be able to get folks out of almost any conceivable medical problem

He participates in training the togolese military and also acts as the team medic, keeping all of our guys healthy along the way... very competent and capable guy..

Click to expand...

I'll PM you when I'm heading over. I am about to start a project in Togoville, so it would be good to have a contact in Lome if needed. We have a large team on the ground there, but none are medical.

Brent in Az said:

The media loves distractions,

Click to expand...

It works like this; doesnt matter who is the hated-the massess just need to someone to hate so they can be controlled. Without they might start thinking and we can not have any of that!

WAB, I have become a big fan of telemedicine. And you can build up a pretty good size anabiotic and traveling kit cheaply eliminating the middleman.

Altitude sickness said:

WAB, I have become a big fan of telemedicine. And you can build up a pretty good size anabiotic and traveling kit cheaply eliminating the middleman.

Jase Case Emergency Antibiotic Supplies and Medical Kits

Get your life saving emergency preparedness antibiotics included in the Jase Case. Ensure your ready with your own trusted emergency antibiotic kit. Shop now!

jasemedical.com

Click to expand...

Agreed, I have a pretty comprehensive travel kit as I have spent literally months in some of these spots. I really appreciate MDWest's offer as a medical professional can be a life saver in a place like Togo. The team doctor for one of the MLS teams was a Godsend on a trip to Haiti when I ate something I shouldn't have!

WAB said:

I'll PM you when I'm heading over. I am about to start a project in Togoville, so it would be good to have a contact in Lome if needed. We have a large team on the ground there, but none are medical.

Click to expand...

We've also got very good relationships built with the Togolese military (specifically the commando battalion).. which is nice to have with the on again, off again unrest that's been going on for a while..

all of my guys are also fluent french speakers (sort of a necessity when training the togo military), which is super helpful any time I have needed to get involved in anything Togo related (my mastery of the French language stops with Oui! and No! lol)..

Tubby’s Canteen said:

Such a business genius that he would have been money ahead to invest in the s&p 500 and do absolutely nothing in business? He’s bankrupted casinos, hotels, airlines , a football league, a university and a whole host of other ventures. If not for an inheritance he’d be a realtor at best and Likely a braggart no one could stand at the local golf course.

Click to expand...

This is 100% true. Trump's inheritance placed in an S&P 500 index fund would certainly have had a better return than his endeavors. Extended family of mine were direct competitors and in the same social circles as Fred Trump back in the day. Fred was a savvy real estate developer and credit is due for him developing Long Island and some of the burroughs. DJT was never thought of as a businessman and his personal behavior was not well received by his peer group. The majority of members of Sleepy Hollow country club rejected his application for membership because they knew him well enough. (my wife's grandfather was the club chairman at the time of his application) This was the impetus for DJT to buy a country club in order to obtain membership. Take note that the politics of DJT were unknown at the time and the membership was evenly divided Rep/Dem so it wasn't a partisan matter, it was a matter of character or avoidance of spectacle.

DJT has always been a showman and a combination of PT Barnum and Vince McMahon. His investment has been in the aggrandizement of his own brand rather than to deliver maximum financial results for investors.

Will that mean he's going to be a terrible president? Not necessarily. It just means that he is focused about himself rather than having a primary goal of maximizing profits. If we call that narcissism, he may see America's success as an extension of himself so his self interests align with America's self interests.

Nonetheless, he is not a highly skilled businessman but rather his efforts (and results) have always been for some other emotional need.

Brent in Az said:

I dont know? He seems to be pretty successful at getting under your skin.
You are welcome to enlighten us as to your extensive knowledge of the corporate business world, and how you became a billionaire genius, mistake free?

Click to expand...

You’re right Brent my business credentials are on a much smaller scale as are my person Finances. What I have is is 15 years of business experience in several fields.
At 17 I stepped up and finished out my fathers contracts when he became medically incapacitated. 14 years later I still have his power of attorney. If that wasn’t enough responsibility to have thrust upon mother dearest took one look at the old man in a hospital bed and checked out taking every cent she could abscond with and my younger sister. You want a real introduction to to business try dealing with a crew of loggers with no respect for a teenager and limited amounts of currency on hand to keep up with wages.
In a lot of the businesses I’ve been involved in business practices like trump routinely employs could well of lead to severe physical repressions. I’ve got scars to prove my credentials in some rather unpleasant industries.

I went from the logging industry to a shipyard in six months I was running the slipway and in under five years I was 3rd in command and running the place. Routinely dealing in million plus dollar contracts and with multiple layers of government bureaucracy. When the wages failed to keep up with responsibilities I went to sea and at the same time purchased several woodlots putting men to work for me once more in the forestry sector.

There’s my credentials a few scars and a lot of hard work to get where I am what have you accomplished in life ?

Tubby’s Canteen said:

You’re right Brent my business credentials are on a much smaller scale as are my person Finances. What I have is is 15 years of business experience in several fields.
At 17 I stepped up and finished out my fathers contracts when he became medically incapacitated. 14 years later I still have his power of attorney. If that wasn’t enough responsibility to have thrust upon mother dearest took one look at the old man in a hospital bed and checked out taking every cent she could abscond with and my younger sister. You want a real introduction to to business try dealing with a crew of loggers with no respect for a teenager and limited amounts of currency on hand to keep up with wages.
In a lot of the businesses I’ve been involved in business practices like trump routinely employs could well of lead to severe physical repressions. I’ve got scars to prove my credentials in some rather unpleasant industries.

I went from the logging industry to a shipyard in six months I was running the slipway and in under five years I was 3rd in command and running the place. Routinely dealing in million plus dollar contracts and with multiple layers of government bureaucracy. When the wages failed to keep up with responsibilities I went to sea and at the same time purchased several woodlots putting men to work for me once more in the forestry sector.

There’s my credentials a few scars and a lot of hard work to get where I am what have you accomplished in life ?

Click to expand...

I'd hire a man with your credentials any day of the week.

WAB said:

I'd hire a man with your credentials any day of the week.

Click to expand...

+1

I can train a monkey with an average IQ to do my job…

What I can’t train is grit, determination, drive, and willingness to take risks, fail, and learn from them..

The world needs more guys thrown into the deep end of the pool at a young age, forced to learn to swim… and less MBAs (I say that, and hold an MBA as well as an MS in Strategic Management)…

I love hiring resourceful young men that are willing to bust their ass and want to make a difference… much more than I like hiring educated and experienced guys that don’t think there’s anything left to learn..

WAB said:

I'd hire a man with your credentials any day of the week.

Click to expand...

You would have to fight over him!

What’s all that green color on the ticker tape this morning? I thought the sky was falling?

John Wasmuth said:

What’s all that green color on the ticker tape this morning? I thought the sky was falling?

Click to expand...

Careful. Nasdaq was up around 4.5% when I checked my portfolio earlier, now its 1.5%. Volatility abounds and we'll have to look at the closing bell later today.

My biggest fear is the high frequency trading systems blow the market up amongst all the inflows and outflows. If the NYSE or Nasdaq circuit breakers trigger and they temporarily suspend trading it would wreak havoc on on the marketplace.

Seems the Aussies have their own version of Joe to contend with.

rookhawk said:

Careful. Nasdaq was up around 4.5% when I checked my portfolio earlier, now its 1.5%. Volatility abounds and we'll have to look at the closing bell later today.

My biggest fear is the high frequency trading systems blow the market up amongst all the inflows and outflows. If the NYSE or Nasdaq circuit breakers trigger and they temporarily suspend trading it would wreak havoc on on the marketplace.

Click to expand...

Point being, the sun came up today despite all the doom and gloom peddling….. markets fluctuate just like they do from time to time.

Tubby’s Canteen said:

@mdwest take away his money and his leverage for a minute and answer me a simple question. On an equal playing field would you enter into business with anyone who exhibits the traits Donald trump does? Proven lier, bombastic statements, long history of failures in business, you’ve said yourself you think he’s an asshole if not for the advantages he got in life from his inheritance do you believe anyone would of done business with him?

Click to expand...

i would try to get him to work for me!

1dirthawker said:

i would try to get him to work for me!

Click to expand...

They say who you choose to associate with reflects on the kind of person you are, is he who you’d want representing your business?