404 Jeffery Caliber

[Ontario Hunter]

No it doesn’t. Nothing has been milled out for a stripper clip unlike in the 425 WR.

Now there's a gun/caliber with some interesting history! Developed in 1909, right on the heels of Jeffery's 404 (1905), the 425 Westley Richards was the first recessed rim cartridge (i.e. rim smaller diameter than case). It allowed Westley Richards to build a rifle on a standard Mauser action using a larger caliber than .423 of 404 Jeffery while retaining the standard bolt. 404 Jeffery rimless cartridge required opening up standard bolt face to the outer limit of what the metal could hold. The recessed rim concept, while it looked good on paper, did have some feeding issues that were challenging to overcome. Eventually, Westley Richards went with a vertically stacked magazine extending below (probably well below?) the standard Mauser floorplate. If yours is of standard staggered box construction, it sounds like you have an early production collector. According to Wikipedia, the standard Mauser action 425 WR with stripper clip port was preferred by game managers for faster reloading. Large scale culling with a 425 must have been brutal ... for the culler!

 

[318AE]

Now there's a gun/caliber with some interesting history! Developed in 1909, right on the heels of Jeffery's 404 (1905), the 425 Westley Richards was the first recessed rim cartridge (i.e. rim smaller diameter than case). It allowed Westley Richards to build a rifle on a standard Mauser action using a larger caliber than .423 of 404 Jeffery while retaining the standard bolt. 404 Jeffery rimless cartridge required opening up standard bolt face to the outer limit of what the metal could hold. The recessed rim concept, while it looked good on paper, did have some feeding issues that were challenging to overcome. Eventually, Westley Richards went with a vertically stacked magazine extending below (probably well below?) the standard Mauser floorplate. If yours is of standard staggered box construction, it sounds like you have an early production collector. According to Wikipedia, the standard Mauser action 425 WR with stripper clip port was preferred by game managers for faster reloading. Large scale culling with a 425 must have been brutal ... for the culler!

You believe quite everything you read on Wikipedia. The 11.2x60 Schuler had a rebated rim and preceded the 425 WR. August Schuler had a patent in Germany on the rebated rim in 1906. It was a commercial failure, and followed later by the 11.2x72 Schuler which was more successful. Take a careful look at the case dimensions and long neck - it’s clear to me where WR got the inspiration.

I’ve never seen an early 425 WR with a staggered box. They all have the extended box, buffalo horn hinge and feeding fingers. I’ve only seen the staggered boxes on rifles from the 50’s and onward. The very high end, best quality ones I’ve seen have been extended box rifles. Mine feed flawlessly, fast or slow, right side or upside down….

 

[Ontario Hunter]

You believe quite everything you read on Wikipedia. The 11.2x60 Schuler had a rebated rim and preceded the 425 WR. August Schuler had a patent in Germany on the rebated rim in 1906. It was a commercial failure, and followed later by the 11.2x72 Schuler which was more successful. Take a careful look at the case dimensions and long neck - it’s clear to me where WR got the inspiration.

I’ve never seen an early 425 WR with a staggered box. They all have the extended box, buffalo horn hinge and feeding fingers. I’ve only seen the staggered boxes on rifles from the 50’s and onward. The very high end, best quality ones I’ve seen have been extended box rifles. Mine feed flawlessly, fast or slow, right side or upside down….

Schuler's German patent #239127 is dated 31 October 1904. It was indeed by all accounts a commercial failure. It may be that Westley Richards was initially able to make a commercial go of the rebated rim concept by stacking the cartridges vertically. I assume this allowed the feeding rails to hold the cartridges exactly under the center of bolt face, thereby giving the cartridge rims maximum height and bolt face maximum depth where the two meet. That way it was essentially impossible for bolt face to slip by a cartridge's rebated rim and jamb into the side of the case during cycling. I read on a cartridge collectors forum that WR eventually changed the rim diameter slightly. If true (IF true), that might account for later made rifles going back to staggered magazines.

 

[Bert the Turtle]

Are the weights of the two rifles the same? As well, are the stocks' dimensions the same? Is that 2300fps an actual chronographed load from each gun?

Not to be argumentative but it defies logic (and physics) that two "identical" rifles, each firing 400gr bullets at the same velocity, would have such a noticeable disparity in perceived recoil. The only other variable that comes to mind that could have an affect on recoil is the powder and it's charge weight.

Rigby uses a fair bit more powder. So other things being equal it recoils more.

That said, I suspect that somebody published that the Jeffery was “gentle” in about 1914 and fair enough. That was the early days and that guy was used to shooting an 8 bore black powder gun or some such and a 404 legitimately felt gentle to him. That idea has been carried forward ever since, kind of like the 458 Win Mag being an unmitigated disaster. People repeat the same thing long after the context in which it applied have past. Compared with early dangerous game rifles, it is gentle. Not compared with a 30-06.

It’s a 400g bullet at 2250 fps. No amount of romance or received wisdom is going to change the laws of physics. They will, however, change perceptions and I suspect that is what is going on here. Given that there is actual recoil and there is perceived recoil, and state of mind has an awful lot to do with the latter, perhaps it is best to let the 404 be gentle.

 

[PCC600]

Rigby uses a fair bit more powder. So other things being equal it recoils more.

That said, I suspect that somebody published that the Jeffery was “gentle” in about 1914 and fair enough. That was the early days and that guy was used to shooting an 8 bore black powder gun or some such and a 404 legitimately felt gentle to him. That idea has been carried forward ever since, kind of like the 458 Win Mag being an unmitigated disaster. People repeat the same thing long after the context in which it applied have past. Compared with early dangerous game rifles, it is gentle. Not compared with a 30-06.

It’s a 400g bullet at 2250 fps. No amount of romance or received wisdom is going to change the laws of physics. They will, however, change perceptions and I suspect that is what is going on here. Given that there is actual recoil and there is perceived recoil, and state of mind has an awful lot to do with the latter, perhaps it is best to let the 404 be gentle.

I have a Mauser Type A single square bridge magnum in 404 J . It was made in early 1920s and spent many years in India . Only weighs about 9 pounds , 24” barrel , no cheek piece on stock and a very narrow butt with horn on the end . It is the worst rifle for felt recoil I have ever used . Nothing gentle about it at all . Second worst is a 9.5x57 MS . I own and happily shoot 600 NE , 505 G and other thumpers but that 404J is just awful .

 

[Bert the Turtle]

Stock fit and shape really does matter! Most unpleasant rifle I’ve shot was a 270 Winchester. And I’ve shot my 404 prone on more than one occasion!

 

[Hunter-Habib]

@Rare Breed
To answer your question, there were quite a few .404 Jeffery rifles manufactured prior to World War II. W.J Jeffery, Vickers, Cogswell & Harrison and Manton manufactured them in England. Mauser Oberndorf manufactured them in Germany. After World War II, all of these places closed shop by the mid-1950s. With Kynoch ceasing manufacture of all centre fire rifle ammunition by 1970 and the American .458 Winchester Magnum becoming widely available (both rifles AND ammunition), the .404 Jeffery died out. Unlike other classic safari calibers, it is quite unfortunate that nobody tried to revive the .404 Jeffery the way they did with (for example) the .416 Rigby. I believe that the new Mauser company lost a great opportunity by not chambering their currently offered Model 98 Magnum rifles in .404 Jeffery. As a matter of fact, this chambering would be much more fitting for Mauser than the .416 Rigby (especially considering that the original Mauser Oberndorf company used to offer the .404 Jeffery in their Type A and Type B rifles). Winchester could also chamber their Model 70 Safari Express in this caliber. In recent hears, only CZ chambered their (now unfortunately discontinued) Model 550 in .404 Jeffery. I do believe that Heym offers their Martini Express in .404 Jeffery though.

@Ontario Hunter
The 11.2x72mm Schuler didn’t attain much prominence in the English speaking world. But it was highly popular in Africa amongst the German, Belgian & Portuguese colonies prior to World War I. So much that the August Schuler Model 34 chambered in 11.2x72mm Schuler was the most popular rifle in the Belgian Congo (barring the ManuFrance Rival chambered in 10.75x68mm Mauser); being regularly exported there by Janssen Fil & Cie. Both the World Wars (in which Germany lost) resulted in many excellent German calibers unfortunately disappearing from the Safari fields for a variety of reasons. Only the 12.7x70mm Schuler (English name .500 Jeffery) has managed to make a significant comeback due to the combined efforts of Tony Sanchez Arino and Harald Wolf in the 1990s.

 

[Rare Breed]

I still don’t get it. Such nostalgia for a 404 Jeffery yet if it was such a big deal why are there none available for sale? The only way I see to own one is through Rigby shop new. 375’s everywhere for sale no 404’s

Must be a reason for this

LOL!!! I just bought a beautiful one!!! I now get it!

 

[Ontario Hunter]

LOL!!! I just bought a beautiful one!!! I now get it!

Wait till you shoot it. Preferably when you're alone at the range. You may have an orgasm.

 

[PCC600]

It is just a damn effective round that did all the heavy lifting in the early 1900's till now. If it was for Ruawark (I spelled it wrong) the 416 rigby would have died in the 1930's. In the 404 original ;loading 400gr at 2150 it was used by most all the African game management units. Modern loading are 2300-2400. A good gunsmith can easily get it to fit in a M98 mauser and any magnum length action. Nostalgia hold alot of folks, I am one of them. The biggest readon you see so few in the US is that most american shooters have never heard of it. Most have heard 416 rigby. and all they know is it’s a big bullet. This forum is different as it focuses on Africa hunting and that brings all the classic to new rounds to the forefront. So those of us that know what the round is as soon as one comes up for sale it gets snatched up.

It is just a damn effective round that did all the heavy lifting in the early 1900's till now. If it was for Ruawark (I spelled it wrong) the 416 rigby would have died in the 1930's. In the 404 original ;loading 400gr at 2150 it was used by most all the African game management units. Modern loading are 2300-2400. A good gunsmith can easily get it to fit in a M98 mauser and any magnum length action. Nostalgia hold alot of folks, I am one of them. The biggest readon you see so few in the US is that most american shooters have never heard of it. Most have heard 416 rigby. and all they know is its a big bullet. This forum is different as it focuses on Africa hunting and that brings all the classic to new rounds to the forefront. So those of us that know what the round is as soon as one comes up for sale it gets snatched up.

Well said . It seems to me that a lot of these old British dangerous game calibres and rifles are better known over here in OZ than in the US . They certainly get plenty of use here on water buff / banteng . Perhaps because OZ has a closer association to UK than does the US. Over here there are huge and growing collections of classic dangerous game rifles . The other thing to remember is the really big buyers and users of English dangerous game rifles and related cartridges were the Indian Princes . Many more high end rifles went to India than Africa . The guns followed the money .

 

[Bert the Turtle]

I still don’t get it. Such nostalgia for a 404 Jeffery yet if it was such a big deal why are there none available for sale? The only way I see to own one is through Rigby shop new. 375’s everywhere for sale no 404’s

Must be a reason for this

One just showed up in the classified section.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Rigby uses a fair bit more powder. So other things being equal it recoils more.

That said, I suspect that somebody published that the Jeffery was “gentle” in about 1914 and fair enough. That was the early days and that guy was used to shooting an 8 bore black powder gun or some such and a 404 legitimately felt gentle to him. That idea has been carried forward ever since, kind of like the 458 Win Mag being an unmitigated disaster. People repeat the same thing long after the context in which it applied have past. Compared with early dangerous game rifles, it is gentle. Not compared with a 30-06.

It’s a 400g bullet at 2250 fps. No amount of romance or received wisdom is going to change the laws of physics. They will, however, change perceptions and I suspect that is what is going on here. Given that there is actual recoil and there is perceived recoil, and state of mind has an awful lot to do with the latter, perhaps it is best to let the 404 be gentle.

True ... sort of. When placed in the context of "normal" properly built African thumper guns, the 404J is indeed, relatively speaking, light recoil. I saw a slow motion video of a very stout fella shooting the 416 Rigby I took over for the lodge owner on my first safari. 416 is smaller caliber than the 404J (which is actually .423 caliber), but that guy's backside looked like a tsunami rippled from his neck down to his butt. No way was I shooting that rifle! Not with my fragile retinas. The lodge owner got rid of that CZ magnum after shooting a half dozen rounds. When I returned last August I let him shoot the 404J I built on a standard 98 Mauser. He very much liked it!

But you are correct. It isn't a 30-06. I learned that lesson ... the hard way. My 404J is wearing the same scope that was on my Springfield for forty years. And I wore that scope the first time I fired the 404J. A 404 cannot be handled like it's a 30-06.

 

[K E Johnson]

Just for fun I ran some numbers on some of the low .4xx calibers for a comparison. I used the Woodleigh manual and picked smaller low weight charges to see what theoretical low side of recoil could be between some of these .4xx calibers. I did not try to cherry pick other loads from other manuals to try to find lower charges. Woodleigh only lists 410 grain bullets for the Rigby as originally loaded, with 400 grain bullets for the rest. I used soft point data for all. Rifle weight was set at 10 lbs for all.
Interesting that H4895 was useful for everything except the .416 Rigby, H4350 was a good choice here.

I am not suggesting these loads in any way other than as a comparison in theoretical recoil. Different calculators have different results on recoil. I am quite sure anyone can cherry pick other loads and another calculator and prove another point.

.416 Taylor H4895 65gr. 2140fps
.416 Taylor H4895 70gr 2360fps

.416 Ruger H4895 68 gr. 2100fps
.416 Ruger H4895 73gr. 2280fps

.416 Remington H4895 71gr. 2265fps
.416 Remington H4895 76gr. 2390fps

.416 Rigby H4350 89gr. 2250fps
.416 Rigby H4350 95gr 2400fps

.404 Jeffery H4895 71gr. 2150fps
.404 Jeffery H 4895 79gr. 2405fps

My take from all this is any of the above calibers perform more or less equally.
If recoil is the primary consideration, there are other calibers that may have a slight advantage Over the .404 Jeffery.

Component availability favors all of the others over the Jeffery.
I found brass for all available on line except the Jeffery.

If a person is particularly recoil sensitive, the .375 H&H has a long usefull history.

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

I have a Mauser Type A single square bridge magnum in 404 J . It was made in early 1920s and spent many years in India . Only weighs about 9 pounds , 24” barrel , no cheek piece on stock and a very narrow butt with horn on the end . It is the worst rifle for felt recoil I have ever used . Nothing gentle about it at all . Second worst is a 9.5x57 MS . I own and happily shoot 600 NE , 505 G and other thumpers but that 404J is just awful .

Champlin’s had one (404) for sale at the DSC convention this year. I handled it and thought it might be that type of experience. It still sold quickly of course