Would a 450 grain .458 Win Mag be a perfectly acceptable standard for elephant?

[IvW]

I am smart, I know that a 450 Rigby and a Rigby 450 NE are not the same thing.

Very smart.....next time I will post with the exact details for all the smart okes out there I am just a dumb ass but at least the shit does not fall out my mouth after I post......

 

[C.W. Richter]

Read Kevin Robertson's prose on this topic. Nyet to any softs on elephant and likely Nyet on the solid (lower SD than the 500 gr,) although I'll admit IF properly placed, it'll do the job. 0.341 SD vs. 0.3 for the 450. The 450 specs just cut the mustard, but the extra V may even it up somewhat. I recall handloading the .458 WM to 2,150 fps (that's all I could squeeze out of it w/ 500s) so at the suggestion of KR and others, 'traded up to .416 in lieu of going the Lott/Ackley/Wyatt route. Good luck! Your PH will be around to assist if need be (and need would Be using softs!!! He wouldn't allow it.)

 

[hoytcanon]

Interesting thread... a whole lot of good info, backed up by a whole lot of stupid.

 

[Nhoro]

I have used 450 gr monolithic copper Peregrine solids at 2280 fps and Hornady 480 gr solids at 2250 fps. Those are both capable rounds and were not pushing reloading limits ie no pressure signs even in the heat of Gonarezhou.The monos took up a little more room and so the 450 gr seems a better fit. The 450 gr bullet has an sd of .306 (same as 300 gr 375 bullet)and decent velocity. Both these loads are proven with quite a few Zim PHs and guides. And the Hornady factory DGS rounds make 2150 fps with 500 gr matches the golden standard of the old 450 calibres. Personally, while doing photographic guiding with school kids etc, I carried 450 gr Peregrine copper solids, chronographed at 2250 +fps and Hornady solids 480 gr at 2250 fps before that ( I have had my 458 for the last 6 years so 480 gr then 450 gr) Then my gunsmith reamed my win mag to lott for free while doing some sight work and that opened other powders and bullets weights to me. Now I carry 515 gr Peregrine solids at 2195 fps in Lott.I carried a mixture of 450 win mag and 515 gr Lott ammo for a year or so after rechambering. For me, I would ( and have) carried both but in Zim, powders and ammo are limited and Lotts gives me some leeway. So I think 500 gr is only an option with lead core solids and primarily Hornady factory, 480 gr being a better option for reloading as we dont have Hornady proprietary powder. For mono solids, I think 450 gr is the best fit.

 

[Riflecrank]

IvW,
I don’t like the .458 Winchester Magnum anymore than you do, but to be fair… Richard doesn’t attribute those failures to be due to the inherent shortcomings of the .458 Winchester Magnum. Here’s what he has to say on the matter:
——————————————————————————————————-
”As to the view that my tracker Tsuro had to finish off elephants that I had shot, thus pushing me to get the .505 Gibbs, let’s put the story right!!! The elephant cow herds in the area I was operating in, were renowned for their extremely aggressive attitude and I relate several accounts in my autobiography (The Hunting Imperative ) where I even found them tracking me!!! So, when tackling one of these herds, which I did frequently when tasked with eliminating all elephant and buffalo from large areas of Tsetse Fly country, shooting fast and furious , sometimes putting down 10, 15, even more, elephants in minutes with my Mannlicher Schonaeuer, inevitably I missed the brain on some and they would rise up, thus giving Tsuro a chance to back up with the .450 Rigby double that he carried. There was absolutely NO question of faulty .458 ammunition, simply a missed brain shot.



Furthermore, I only acquired the .505 after leaving the Game Department, for my safari hunting when backing up clients. What a truly magnificent cartridge that is! I used original Kynoch ammunition for some time as the rifle came with a good supply, but later handloaded with the monometal 550 gr Dzombo brass bullets and 135 grs of S385 powder ( the Somchem South African powder). This gave 2200 – 2230 fps. And heavy recoil!!!



Anyway, I continued using my .458 as a Professional Hunter most of the time as I have every confidence in it!”
——————————————————————————————————-

Richard later told me that he used three kinds of ammunition in his .505 Gibbs:
-Original Kynoch 525Gr round nosed steel jacketed FMJ solid factory loads (1978-1980)
- Barnes Old Pattern 600Gr round nosed copper jacketed FMJ solid hand loads (1980-2007)
- DZOMBO Mark VI 550Gr flat nosed brass monometal solid hand loads (very briefly in 2008 before he retired for only a few trials)

Another note for all interested parties. Richard exclusively used one kind of .458 Winchester Magnum ammunition for all his elephant culling. These were FRESH pre ‘69 Winchester Super Speed 500Gr round nosed steel jacketed FMJ solid factory loads (advertised velocity= 2130 FPS, chronographed velocity=2087 FPS).
View attachment 599342
Between 1970-1978, he was backing up clients with a .500/465 Nitro Express Holland & Holland Royal sidelock ejector and old stocks of Kynoch 480Gr round nosed steel jacketed FMJ solid factory loads.

Through the course of his hunting career, he used ten sporting firearms:
a) A .22 Hi-Power Savage Model 99
b) A .303 British Lee Enfield
c) A 7x57mm Mauser BRNO ZKK600
d) A .30-06 Springfield BSA Majestic
e) A .458 Winchester Magnum BSA Majestic that originally belonged to Paul Grobler (used for most of his private dangerous game hunts until 1972)
f) The game department issued .458 Winchester Magnum Mannlicher Schoenauer
g) A .458 Winchester Magnum Flaig’s built custom FN Mauser (gifted to him by client Zachary Miller in 1972 and toted by Richard as his favorite rifle)
h) A .500/465 Nitro Express Holland & Holland Royale sidelock ejector
i) A .505 George Gibbs Mauser (made in 1927 & acquired in 1978)
j) A 12 gauge 2.5” W.J Jeffery boxlock non ejector side by side


I’d be more than happy to inbox you his WhatsApp No. as a means of verification. He’s a true treasure trove of knowledge, just like you are. A little unorthodox though, in that he prefers to use solids for follow up jobs on wounded lions.

Hunter-Habib,
Thanks for taking the time to spell all that out.

This web site is a very interesting blend of wisdom and dumbassery.
Always amusing.

The ".450 S. Rigby" was the first of the class of cartridges (later to be known as Nitro Express)
to survive proof in a set of barrels for a double rifle, in November 1897.
It was later called the .450 Nitro Express 3-1/4", early in the 20th century.
Until the .450 Rigby Rimless came along as the me-too following the .450 Dakota by several years,
there was never any confusion about what a .450 Rigby meant.
It meant the .450 NE 3-1/4".

The "S." in ".450 S. Rigby" may refer to "Special" or "Smokeless" or both.
Probably purposely ambiguous.
John Rigby pioneered the Cordite loading into a stronger brass case similar to the old .450 BPE.
He also had to find a new and stronger steel to make the set of barrels out of,
so as to keep them slim and properly contoured for balance.
He retired to this endeavor after overseeing the transition of the .303 British from BP to smokeless.
He had learned much and made many contacts with steel and brass makers while at his government job, mandatorily forced to retire at age 65.

It is my belief that industrial espionage allowed William Jackman Jeffery to beat Rigby to the actual first ever "Nitro Express" cartridge with his .400 S. Jeffery in a single-barrel Farquharson,
much easier, quicker to survive proof on first go with a single heavy barrel of the old steel.
(Rigby only did it with the fifth set of barrels he had submitted, made of better steel.)
Just needed the improved brass case, and Jeffery created a doozy for that with the thick-rimmed .400 S. Jeffery that was first shooting about mid 1897.
That was the first ever of the later-named Nitro Express class, the .450/.400 Nitro Express 3".