Statistics 101: How To Actually Interpret Accuracy & Build Loads

Statistical analysis of shooting results whether it be precision to a point on a target, accuracy in the form of repeatability of group size or SD (consistency) of velocity are all useful tools for making a judgement. Just have to recognize the limitations of the statistical analysis that result from sampling bias(es) when interpreting the results.
In response to your points, I don't think it's necessarily an error of logic, but it is certainly a limitation of experimental design.

This is by necessity a simplified (and therefore flawed) model.

There are certainly uncontrolled variables here that may, probably do, actually yield a non normal distribution. Shooter error, temperature, barrel wear, wind, fouling etc.

However, it's not practical to actually account for these in the real world. If doing it under idealized conditions you could improve the approach by using a temperature controlled indoor range, shooting from a machine rest, cleaning after every shot etc.

However, that's not practical for most shooters so in the absence of that data, or any ability to actually get it, assuming the normal distribution as the 'most accurate' approximation is the best approach.

I think that this simplified approach is just about good enough to be statistically valid whilst being simple enough to be practical in the real world.

It might be interesting as a research exercise to try and account for all those other variables. Maybe try and do some sort of explanatory regression model and see what variables can be identified as significant by bic or something. But it'd take exponentially more data points to do so, you'd still have limitations due to barrel wear etc and the findings you'd get would only be relevant to a single rifle and a single load, so the value of the exercise is fairly limited.

Personally, I think the approach here is just good enough to get some comparative data between two loads with just enough validity to be mildly useful and that it is certainly better than just 3 shots for that purpose.
 
I get 5 shots 1 ragged hole with my Remington milspec 5r's one in 308 and his bigger brother in 300WM using Serbian knock off match kings. There called PPU. I got them at grafs and sons. A online retailer. There the only place I've found Prvi Partizan in loose component form. And there great
 
Hello folks.

I've been meaning to put something together on this topic for a while as it's a persistent blind spot within the shooting and reloading community. @Shooter375 s recent thread on crimping finally gave me the incentive to put words to forum. Not calling him out specifically, just the latest in a long line of threads on reloading, grouping and what it all means. I think this'll be of interest to a few of our members and may spark some lively discussion.

This post will be long, and will be split into 2 main topics:

1. Basic statistics and why 3 round group don't mean anything. This'll be math heavy (dull, I know!), but should be mildly interesting and give sufficient background for it all to make sense.
2. If 3 round groups mean nothing, then what can we do instead to guide load development? This section will be more practical and maybe it'll save people some time and money.

Here we go!

Topic 1 - Stats 'n' stuff.

This is a normal distribution curve:
View attachment 572548
Scary, I know. But it's a surprisingly useful thing. What this curve does, is explain the distribution of data points within a sample using 2 main criteria. These are; the mean of the data set, and the standard deviation (SD). I will not go into the math of what SD is, but this link is here for those who are interested: https://www.mathsisfun.com/data/standard-deviation.html

This calculator allows you to calculate SD from a data set: https://www.calculator.net/standard-deviation-calculator.html
We'll get onto that later. Use 'Sample', not 'Population'.

This curve assumes something called 'normal' or Gaussian distribution. It assumes that data is spread about the mean in a specific way, with no skew to the high end, or the low end. Not all data does this, but normal distribution is called 'normal' for a reason. It is incredibly common in nature, and in complex systems. Examples of data that follow this trend include; height of people within a population, IQ in a population, torque applied to a bolt by a torque wrench, and roughly 90% of all other examples that spring to mind. Some topical ones for us on this forum might include bullet weights within a single box of bullets or velocity of a given load.

The curve actually tells us quite a lot about the data and helps us make conclusions. The mean tells us the mid point, whilst the standard deviation tells us how spread out that data is about the mean. A small SD suggests that all data points are tightly clustered, giving a steeper curve. You'll notice in the above that we have lines at -3, -2, -1, 0 and so forth. Each of these describes one standard deviation, and as the figure shows, we can make clear statements about what percent of our data points fit within a certain number of SDs from the mean.

As an example, Let's say you buy a box of shiny 300gr bullets. You weigh 20 of 'em, stick the values into the calculator above. You find that the mean is 300gr and the SD is 2gr. This tells us that in your box of 100 bullets, 68 of them weigh between 298 and 302gr, 95 of them weigh between 296 and 304gr, and all 100 of them weigh between 294gr and 306gr. 20 bullets (the sample) tells you enough about the entire box (population) to say this with confidence (real, statistical confidence, not the usual bollocks shooters say!)

Cool stuff, but why should you care?

Well, as with most complex systems, the grouping of a given load also follows this normal distribution. That's unsurprising. A rifle and its load is a complex system, made up of a whole lot of variables which themselves follow normal distributions. Bullet weight. Bullet diameter. Neck tension. Case volume. Specific energy of powder. Powder charge. Primer energy. All have a mean that they vary about randomly following the distribution above.

We can therefore imagine the group of a rifle to look something like this if you fired say 1000 rounds:

View attachment 572549
View attachment 572550

You have a normal distribution for 'x' (horizontal dispersion) and a normal distribution for 'y' (vertical dispersion) with the height of the little hill at any given (x,y) defining the relative number of those 1000 rounds that fall there. The middle of the hill would have coordinates 0,0 as it is 0" away from the center of the group both vertically and horizontally. You'll see that most rounds fall in the middle (mean +/-1 SD) but that some rounds fall further from the center at 2 or even 3 SD away from the mean center of the group.

So now you know what your group is doing, but what does it have to do with 3 round groups?

Well, let's say you have 2 loads, both of which have exactly the same mean (0,0) and the same SD (let's say 0.5" horizontally and vertically). They're identically accurate in every way. But obviously you don't know this. You haven't shot 'em yet.

You do what many shooters do. Take 3 rounds of one, shoot 'em, then take 3 rounds of the other and shoot them too. You then measure your group in MOA.

We can be pretty confident that one group will be smaller than the other by pure random chance. But does that mean that one is actually 'better'?

No, it does not.

Let's look at the distribution curves again. Let's say that for load #1 the three rounds you shot landed within 1SD of the mean. This is pretty likely. You've got a 68% chance of that happening so with only 3 shots in the group the odds are in your favor. That load posts a group of MAX 1" or 1MOA. You're pretty happy and you go hunting. Let's say for load #2 the three you randomly picked to shoot land within 2SD of the mean. You've got a 95% chance of that happening. The second load therefore gives a group of 2" or 2MOA. Twice what the first load gave you.

Obviously based on this you go shoot with load #1, boasting happily to your buddies at the bar about your 'sub-MOA' rifle.

But the two groups were equally accurate. If you performed the same test again, the results could completely flip the other way based on pure random chance. You've learned nothing.

And that sub-MOA rifle? It's not even a 1.5MOA rifle. The standard distribution tells us that actually, if you fire 20 shots, your group is actually barely keeping under 2MOA. If you fire 100 rounds of that load over the following year, the actual group is more like 3MOA... ponder that next time you have a 'flier'.

It's the same story when people say their rifle 'likes' or 'doesn't like' a specific brand of ammo based on only a few shots, or pick a specific bullet because it's 'way more accurate'. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. You don't know and you've done nothing to find out. You've just cherry picked a group of a few shots that happened to fall in the 68% confidence interval instead of the 95% confidence interval. It means nothing.

That brings us onto Topic 2 - What can be done?

So, we know from the above that using a small number of shots cannot accurately and truthfully distinguish between two loads in terms of their grouping. What can we do instead? Well adding more rounds to your group starts to give you a truer picture of what is going on, but ammo is expensive and no one wants to be sat at the bench doing load development and shooting 20 rounds of each load in a ladder test. Your barrel wouldn't last long either.

We have to be pragmatic here. We must accept that actually, you will never be able to find the 'true' best load. But we can truthfully and accurately understand what a load is doing and if it is good enough for our purposes.

I am proposing the following method to achieve that. It is not without its drawbacks, but it will be far more statistically robust. I welcome criticism and feedback.

Step 1. Choose a bullet, any bullet. You'll never know if it's the 'most accurate' so pick one you like, one whose performance you trust, one that is readily available and in budget. Stick with it.
Step 2. Do the same with powder and all other components. Again, you don't know 'the best' and you never will, but you can choose one you can source and I'll share a method later to see if it's 'good enough'.
Step 3. Choose a velocity. What energy do you want, do you have a figure in mind, a goal you'd like to meet or a speed that seems reasonable based on your loading data?
Step 4. Ladder test. 1 round of each powder charge. No worries about accuracy, testing purely for a charge to meet your velocity. Define your powder charge when you chrono the velocity you want.
Step 5. You now have your load. But is it 'acceptably' accurate? Load 25x bullets of this load. Use 5 to zero the rifle. Get a target with a clear and defined center point. Shoot all 20 rounds at the target, measuring the velocity as you go. First sense check. What is your velocity SD like, are you hitting your target energy? Second sense check. Go to your target and measure distance from the center of the target (which as you zeroed should be center of the group) to the center of each bullet hole. Write down all 20 measurements. Enter these into the SD calculator above to get your SD for the load.
Step 6. You now have a mean (0,0) and an SD. As such, you can say (with actual confidence) how accurate the load is. For instance, if your SD is 0.2", you can say with certainty that 99.7% of all rounds from that group fall within 0.6" of the aim point (1.2MOA overall). If the SD is 0.5", 99.7% of all rounds of that loading will fall within 1.5" of your aim point (3MOA overall). Is this accurate enough for what the rifle and load is intended to do?

Bear in mind that this is the 99.7% interval, most rounds will be closer than this (3MOA at 99.7% means that 68% of shots fall within 1MOA and 95% fall within 2MOA. That's minute of deer in my book, especially if your annual hunting round count is only 20 rounds of so).

If it is, you have a load. If it isn't, choose a variable at random (bullet, powder charge etc), change it and try steps 5 + 6 again. I think you'll find pretty quickly if you have an actually 'bad' bullet, velocity etc for the rifle, and actually, in most cases the method above will be 'adequate' in just one go.

So there you go. A load development strategy that is a. statistically valid and b. uses no more ammo than just shooting random 3 round groups and cherry picking something for no good reason. Heck, it might even save you time and money pointlessly shooting random load combinations to learn nothing until you get lucky with one random load that happens to throw out a small group through random chance.

Thoughts? I bet there are other (and better) statisticians on this forum than I, so please chime in!
@Alistair
I do things very simply.
I pick the bullet I want to use, work up my powder charge to get the velocity I want then shoot 5 three shot groups and compare the targets. I measure each group and work out my best, worst and average group size.
I then know on my best day it will group X, on my worst day it will group Y but overall it should be somewhere betwixt the 2. If it falls in my pre determined parameters all fine. If not I start again.
As long as my shots are on target I don't care where they group. After I have my load I then zero my rifle to that load.
I buy my projectiles in bulk or from the same lot, the same with powder and primers to reduce variables and use the same lot of cases.
When I run out of components I start the process again.
I like to keep things simple.
Bob
 
Huge difference between statistical validity suited to judge target shooting vs hunting. For hunting- a 3-5 shot group may be perfectly correct where the N sample size is maybe five to ten, 3-5 shot groups, shot at different times and/or different days where the rifle condition is true to the average hunting condition- like cold and clean. A valid idea for judging a hunting load or rifle may require several outings at 3-5 shots each with a total N of 20-30.

For target shooting a valid statistical evaluation may require much longer shot strings and the appropriate N number and repetitions might look much different- maybe a few 20 shot strings, depending on the type of target shooting. But to statistically gauge a hunting load or rifle based on a continuous, long shot string may not at all reflect how good the load or rifle may be for hunting.

Most every time I go to the range, especially just before hunting season, I can witness someone trying to work up a load or do final scope adjustments for hunting. And usually I see them do the same thing- bang, bang ,bang, bang, bang, etc. ... in long shot strings. After 20-50 shots and multiple "fine" adjustments of their scope settings they may have less idea about how well the load is working and how well the scope is sighted in for hunting than when they started. :)
@fourfive8
Before I go hunting I go to the range and fire a ONE shot group to make sure it's fine for the first shot.
I then let the rifle cool and fire a 3 shot group to verify and just in case I ever need 3 shots and then go home. Hopefully the 3 shot group is in the same area as the 1 shot group.
Bob
 
If you use ballistic programs such as Quickload or Gordon's, it will significantly cut down the number of shots required to fine your accurate load. OBT will provide a scientific reference point, which you can then fine tune with the results you see on paper. I personally use Quickload and then shoot a ladder test at 300m to confirm. However, with the ladder test you still have the small sample size issue. Ideally you want to shoot a ladder with 2/3 bullets at each charge weight to make it more statistically significant (i.e. 30 shots).
@RockSlinger404
I've never shot the ladder, I think it would ruin a perfectly good ladder.
I load 5 rounds from minimum charge to max charge to determine my pressures. Once determined I load up some round with the required charge and shoot a group then fine tune for poi.
I usually do my load development in hot weather that way I can develop a load that's SAFE for use all year round.
I found years ogo that a load developed in winter may give pressure issues in summer. Hence summer load development gives me safe ammo for any time of the year.
Bob
 
@RockSlinger404
I've never shot the ladder, I think it would ruin a perfectly good ladder.
I load 5 rounds from minimum charge to max charge to determine my pressures. Once determined I load up some round with the required charge and shoot a group then fine tune for poi.
I usually do my load development in hot weather that way I can develop a load that's SAFE for use all year round.
I found years ogo that a load developed in winter may give pressure issues in summer. Hence summer load development gives me safe ammo for any time of the year.
Bob
I had this issue as well when I lived in Arizona. Since then I've moved to the east coast and back west to Oklahoma. Now my loads are all kinds of crazy and I almost have to start all over again. But I enjoy load development. One thing I noticed when I moved to the east coast was my long range game died. Pretty much east of the Mississippi you would be hard pressed to find a shot passed 200yrds. In a practical sense. Now that I'm in OK. I can dust off the 300WM and my 25-30x glass again
 
I had this issue as well when I lived in Arizona. Since then I've moved to the east coast and back west to Oklahoma. Now my loads are all kinds of crazy and I almost have to start all over again. But I enjoy load development. One thing I noticed when I moved to the east coast was my long range game died. Pretty much east of the Mississippi you would be hard pressed to find a shot passed 200yrds. In a practical sense. Now that I'm in OK. I can dust off the 300WM and my 25-30x glass again
@D.M.V
That's why I try and do my load development in summer. Then they are usually fine in any weather we have in Australia.
I have found that even temperature stable powder can give trouble if max loads are developed in winter.
Unusual yes uncommon no.
My load development gives rounds that I can safely use in temperatures from minus 12 degrees to 42 degrees celcieus. Any hotter or colder I stay home.
Bob
 
@D.M.V
That's why I try and do my load development in summer. Then they are usually fine in any weather we have in Australia.
I have found that even temperature stable powder can give trouble if max loads are developed in winter.
Unusual yes uncommon no.
My load development gives rounds that I can safely use in temperatures from minus 12 degrees to 42 degrees celcieus. Any hotter or colder I stay home.
Bob
I hear you. You know I have a beautiful Bruno/Czech 35 Whelen I haven't played with in maybe 5 years. I remember I put a brand new Leupold vx2 2x7 on it and haven't touched it since. Seeing your title makes me think it's time to get her rolling again. I've shot very little since 2019 since we sold our Arizona property and just a handful of times on the east coast. Now that I'm in Oklahoma there's plenty of opportunities and I'm looking forward to getting active again
 
I hear you. You know I have a beautiful Bruno/Czech 35 Whelen I haven't played with in maybe 5 years. I remember I put a brand new Leupold vx2 2x7 on it and haven't touched it since. Seeing your title makes me think it's time to get her rolling again. I've shot very little since 2019 since we sold our Arizona property and just a handful of times on the east coast. Now that I'm in Oklahoma there's plenty of opportunities and I'm looking forward to getting active again
@D.M.V
When you dust your whelen off there's a lot of good loading info on AH for the Whelen using CFE223.
A max charge or 64.1gn will give you around 2,700 fps with a 250gr speer hotecore or nosler.
A 225gn accubond at upto 2,900fps will give you a fine long range round capable of 400 plus yards and every bit the equal or better than the little 338WM.
Bob
 
@D.M.V
When you dust your whelen off there's a lot of good loading info on AH for the Whelen using CFE223.
A max charge or 64.1gn will give you around 2,700 fps with a 250gr speer hotecore or nosler.
A 225gn accubond at upto 2,900fps will give you a fine long range round capable of 400 plus yards and every bit the equal or better than the little 338WM.
Bob
I have not use cfe before. I've seen it before but never tried any. I have quite a bit of power. I tended to stay away from anything powder wise that I perceived as novelty. I tried to always work up loads using stuff like the old IMR stuff and pistol I mostly use 231 and tightgroup for 45 because it's usually always available. In AZ when I was shooting a lot it was harder to find anything novel. When I got into 6.5 creedmore I remember getting h4350 started to become a chore. Where my old trusty 308 shooting imr4064 was always available
 
I have not use cfe before. I've seen it before but never tried any. I have quite a bit of power. I tended to stay away from anything powder wise that I perceived as novelty. I tried to always work up loads using stuff like the old IMR stuff and pistol I mostly use 231 and tightgroup for 45 because it's usually always available. In AZ when I was shooting a lot it was harder to find anything novel. When I got into 6.5 creedmore I remember getting h4350 started to become a chore. Where my old trusty 308 shooting imr4064 was always available
@D.M.V
CFE223 isn't a novelty powder that's been around a few years now. It's very versatile and can be used in a lot of cartridges from 204 Ruger up to 375H&H. In some cases it gives a real velocity boost. I use it it the 223, 308 and my Whelen.
In my son's 308 I get 2,950fps with 150gr accubonds and Hornady SSTs and it's bitty groups. It really makes the Whelen get up and sing.
It's a great powder very versatile.
Bob
 
Second sense check. Go to your target and measure distance from the center of the target (which as you zeroed should be center of the group) to the center of each bullet hole. Write down all 20 measurements. Enter these into the SD calculator above to get your SD for the load.
Step 6. You now have a mean (0,0) and an SD. As such, you can say (with actual confidence) how accurate the load is. For instance, if your SD is 0.2", you can say with certainty that 99.7% of all rounds from that group fall within 0.6" of the aim point (1.2MOA overall). If the SD is 0.5", 99.7% of all rounds of that loading will fall within 1.5" of your aim point (3MOA overall). Is this accurate enough for what the rifle and load is intended to do?

Bear in mind that this is the 99.7% interval, most rounds will be closer than this (3MOA at 99.7% means that 68% of shots fall within 1MOA and 95% fall within 2MOA. That's minute of deer in my book, especially if your annual hunting round count is only 20 rounds of so).

Thoughts? I bet there are other (and better) statisticians on this forum than I, so please chime in!

Great write-up Alistair! I've been searching somewhat-hopelessly through the interwebs for the last couple weeks trying to find statistically-valid processes for determining accuracy, and your post is a breath of fresh air! Overall, I think the approach is excellent, and among other things, will save money in the long run compared to chasing randomness with small-group OCW and other methods. Thanks!

One point of correction: you say to measure the distance from zero to the point of impact, which defines the radius of that shot. While the group's cartesian coordinates may have a bivariate Normal distribution (fourfive8's solid point about autocorrelation notwithstanding), the radius does not have a Normal distribution. Rather, the radius follows a Hoyt (aka Nakagami-q) distribution. This may seem like splitting hairs, but the fact that the distance from center is non-normal means we can't use the 68/95/99.7 empirical rule. I still haven't found a source for computing confidence intervals with a Hoyt distribution, but if we make one more assumption, we're in business.

If the true distribution of shots is not only Normal but circular Normal, meaning the horizontal coordinates and vertical coordinates are uncorrelated with each other, than the radius follows the much-better-studied Rayleigh Distribution, which, as it turns out, is the distribution of errors in GPS coordinates (the distance from your GPS location to your actual location is analogous to the distance between the center of the group and the bullet's actual impact).

Thanks to the R&D that's gone into GPS and related systems, we know that 50% of your shots will fall within a circle defined by the average radius (µ, i.e. the average distance from zero to point of impact), 95% of your shots will fall with a circle of radius 2.1µ, and 99.7% of your shots will fall within 2.9µ. Note µ is the true mean of the distribution, and the sample mean of the 20-shot group is merely an approximation with its own error inherent in it.

Anyway thanks again for this write-up!

p.s. the average distance from zero µ is the same as the old military term "circular error probable" and there's some good info on the wikipedia page.
 
One additional point:

You say to measure the distance from zero to the point of impact, which defines the radius of that shot, and then to find the standard deviation. But then you say that the mean is (0,0), but that's incorrect. The average distance from zero to the point of impact will be a single number (not a bivariate coordinate) equal to the mean radius and it will certainly not be zero.
 
Having taken 500-level Statistics, I understand what you've presented above (and much more, un-useful stats featuring mathematicians' names, hyphenated. Kruskal-Wallace Rank Sum Test, Mann-Whitney U Test, et. al LOL). I believe a fantastic, cold gun small diameter 3-shot (at varying temperatures) group IS very important for 99% of typical Hunting situations. With target competition and long-range shooting (whether paper or live targets,) some more consideration is required with respect to a great many things (including what you've presented above, plus many more....equipment selection, performance with more repeated shots in varying conditions, etc. etc. I have some guns that will feature an 0.5" or less group for the first 3ish shots (typ. heavily handloaded) but then the bbl gets hot and the deviation begins. Some, not All (i.e. Lilja SS bbls, fluted-they'll keep the group size consistent if you do your work.) I'm ok with that, because as a Hunter, I should've done my job within those first shot(s). Typically, the wary game either drops or disappears after shot 1, based upon a hit or a miss, so no further shots are necessary (excepting a coup-de-grace put out of misery 2nd.) Therefore, I believe there is some sound merit to your Hunting arms' 3-shot group performance. I hear many people speaking of SD, etc. getting too wrapped up in the numbers, as opposed to the mission (i.e Hunting in Africa or chasing deer at home!) How does your dead <pick your fav DG species or even a deer!> feel about the SD of the 3"-4" iron sight groups @ 100 yds? On the contrary, a TX Aoudad at 850 yds requires much further consideration (and not just elementary statistics! With a hot mag load your group size should be more consistent from shot-to-shot. That 4th+ shot walking group in some guns/loads is not your friend at distance. You can, however, make the 1st to 3rd shot count and allow the barrel to cool in such cases.) Neat information You shared, nonetheless!
 
Love it.
I'm an engineering nerd. Pretty comfortable with tweed jacket/elbow patches/pony tails type pPhD's going into the finer bits of thermomechanical fatigue, material science, and fracture mechanics investigations in aerospace and power gen toys that spin with fancy metals.

I also jumped out of a helo for a living in the military days, turned a wrench as a plane captain (crew chief to some) on a lot of h-60's and a LOT of old bmw motorcycles. You could say I'm a nerd with dirty fingernails.

I enjoyed the OP's presentation a lot. I'm not criticizing as much as adding a little flavor when I say I'd like to suggest we sprinkle a little bit of grace on some of the verbiage used in the industry.
Yes, there are a lot of bubbas that mangle terminology but there's a lot of impressively talented and experienced people that talk about "what bullet your gun likes" for just the fact that it's easier to get across to folks they're teaching than to give them the full business and turn them away.

I spent time with some world class F-class shooters at the tri-county gun club in sherwood, OR, just outside Portland. It's about a 16month wait to get in the club. Some of those guys can make your head spin and while they may "round off the bolt head" a little with their explanations, they're the real deal and I learned an immense amount.

Besides just the math and data capture, there's a lot that goes into a decent load development regimen.
There's also a practical element to load development - limited time, resources, and barrel life.
You have to design the method to the constraints and still make an achievable goal.

Here's a few more items for chewing on:

1 - barrel temp. Especially if you're not in a free floating platform.
I run a barrel cooler on my ruger no 1 RSI in 308 for 4 mins between shots to mimic a cold barrel to prevent stringing. Some would argue and/or agree with me it's not a match barrel so why bother. HA HA

2 - You also learn that a barrel changes speeds over the course of it's life.
I don't spend 20 rounds per step of load dev for a 300WM because I'll eventually burn the barrel out pre-maturely. I run 5 until I detect a pattern in my excel sheet where I graph my results and then to prove it, I run groups of 10.

3 - Also, I'm impatient and prone to error in both my handloading and my data logging.
:D

4 - law of diminishing returns. I even made a cartridge jig to spin rounds on with a dial indicator to check runout. I can make fantastic handloads that are VERY consistent. Is my rifle of high enough quality for it to matter? With a ruger stock barrel, probably not. With a blaser r8? Probably so.
However - you have to consider if you're really that good of a shot for that to not be the limiting factor. Did you wear your reading glasses?

5 - gage reliability and repeatability - how much do you trust your chrono? It's hard to mess up vernier calipers but if you're holding them to a hole in paper are you missing just a little?

So as an engineer, I appreciate when people get to a practical approach on things that, while not "pure," are functionally within the area where it's hard to tell the difference.

Very much appreciate the OP taking the time to thoroughly explain things.
I'm frequently changing my load dev routine.
 
Last edited:
90% of the Game is Half-Mental. -Y. Berra
 
"90% of the Game is Half-Mental." -Y. Berra :p For most hunting shots, I personally believe SD (sectional density) is more important than the statistic of the same acronym, excepting long range shots where one or both may come into play. Using enough stat programs over the last few decades for work, I'd rather shoot and hunt, and, the more you hunt, the better hunter you become. The same can be said for shooting (and reloading if long range accuracy and/or savings is desired.) All that said, I keep spreadsheets on the deer/bear/turkey populations/maturity/locations and year-to-year plantings (successes, failures, input requirements/quantities, costs) as the animal data can be put onto aerial maps to track patterns (and explain to guests) and the latter makes it easier for annual work orders and figuring out expenses for cost and tax recordkeeping purposes. Keeping all test targets in a large portfolio (and/or taking digital photos of each and keeping a file) works for me (even at <1,000 yds.) IF a gun shoots consistent 10 shot groups <1 MOA under all conditions, you're Very Good for hunting! Not all can provide that. I have an old 3006 Rem pump that shoots 10-shot 2" groups and it's also very good (0.5-1" for the first few) for shots under 300 yds considering the low-power optics selected. Never any statistical equations run for my hunting/shooting (and anything I missed was my own fault, with the only statistic coming into play at those times was human error in one form or another!!) <750 yd hunting shots successfully made with good equipment, handloading, properly adjusted/sighted-in optics, and practice! <1000 yd for hunting prep shots at targets. Luckily, you can typically get closer, but some sheep/goat species and topographical barriers often prove otherwise!

In statistics, a minimum population of 3 datum is required to calculate a reasonable average. ;) That undoubtedly came into play with the advent of the standard 3-shot group desired performance. It's also good for sales, for basic factory rigs, as many would often group considerably larger using cheap factory ammo, non-adjustable triggers, inferior metals, cheap optics, et. al. I'd probably be more interested in tracking larger group SDs (and many other stats) IF i were shooting long range competition (i.e. 1,000-3,000 yds.)

A tad bit more on SD...primer selection (between brands and models within brands can dramatically affect group size and consistency.) Choose wisely!!
 
Last edited:
OMT: An old timer that used to take me out hunting as a kid...I'd say he was from the Art Alphin (A-Square) school of ballistics (old-timer=former USMC shooting/ballistics fanatic, gun salesman when hardware stores sold 'em, and later FFL.) He taught me to select the magic 3 rounds across the box of ammo (whether 20, or across the typical 2 boxes purchased; NOT in successive order, and by doing so, you're getting a MUCH more representative sample of the repeatable performance of that particular lot of ammo)-it just makes sense, for ammo you had no control over production. For handloads, there's much better assurance of round-to-round consistency (and you can weigh and chuck or load/flag components in advance or use those varying outliers for (rough) zero'ing-in purposes. You'd be shocked to see the weight differences from round to round in older factory ammo (the cheaper Win/Rem/Federal ammo.) There was a reason Premium ammo was developed (their reason: $; our reason: better accuracy/sometimes better terminal performance.) I generally keep, but put an X on the sides of cases/bullets/primers that were not optimal at the time of loading, and thus they're flagged for sighting in, fouling shots on certain rifles that perform best with such, and/or teaching kids/newbies to shoot.
 

Forum statistics

Threads
54,353
Messages
1,152,187
Members
94,020
Latest member
AundreaHal
 

 

 

Latest profile posts

Roan hunt of a life time !

IHC-KB5 wrote on Huvius's profile.
Thanks for catching the Flanged brass - much appreciated!
new updates !


SETH RINGER wrote on RR 314's profile.
HOW MUCH ARE THEY?? PLAIN? CAMO? THX, SETH
USN
Please a prayer request due to Michael Sipple being mauled by a Cape buffalo.

Bayly Sipple Safaris on FB for company statement.
 
Top